Good employee, but tardy a lot

junebug · November 2003

I have an employee who is tardy 2-3 times a week, an average of 5-10 minutes per occurrence. She is good at her job and I would hate to lose her, but her lateness can cause disruptions. Also, tardiness is an extreme sore spot for the owner of the company. If this doesn't improve (which it most likely will not)he wants me to make a policy that if a person is even a minute late, they are docked 15 minutes from their pay. Can this be done legally? Does someone have another suggestion to entice the employee to be timely that will not force me to eventually fire her? FYI we are a small firm of about 30 employees.

Thanks for your help.

Balloonman · November 2003

There are wage and hour issues with docking pay, depends on how you do your increments and rounding...etc.
However I do not believe good employees are late a lot. This is a discipline issue. Either draft an attendance problem, or sit down with this individual and explain this is not acceptable and what the outcome for continue lateness will be............termination.
My $0.02 worth.
DJ The Balloonman

deniseE · November 2003

You could be talking about my husband!!! We commute together and this is a constant sore spot....what my boss did for me was move my start time ahead...I work the same number of hours....I just arrive later.,...and far less stressed!

I agree that lateness is an issue...but there are people...and i can't tell you why...that will never be ontime for anything. And although I see the principle behind it....I cannot see losing an otherwise good employee over 10 minutes in the morning...that she likely makes up by skipping breaks, shortened lunches, or staying in the evening.

My other thought on the time issue is that the company is very likely to want this same employee to stay late to finish a project sometimes. We do this without OT here....so if i'm going to give up my lunch hour, or work late to help you meet a deadline...please don't raise the hairy eyebrow when I arrive 5 minutes late sometimes. This goes with the understanding that I don't work in a production environment...the rules are completely different there....

I hope it works out for all of you...

Nrdgrrl · November 2003

Are you sure my husband doesn't work for you?

He is one of the ones that can never seem to get ANYWHERE on time. If you tell him to come in at 8:15, he'll be there at 8:20. His boss told him to be in between 8 and 8:30. But he is lucky, his job doesn't require him to really be on time. As long as the work is done, that's all that really matters. Now if you are a manager, the need to be a good example to subordinates is important.

NrdGrrl

Crout · November 2003

Is she exempt or non-exempt? If she's exempt you can't dock her pay, you can only discipline. If she's non-exempt you can also discipline, but I think the smallest increment is 10 or 15 minutes for docking. The "One-Minute Policy" would be a REALLY bad idea. The FLSA issues aside, the enforcement aspects would be daunting as well, UNLESS you guys have time clocks. I agree that something should be done about the person you mentioned, but how long would you have a work force if you started writing people up for being one minute late? Why not have them stay one minute later to make up for it? Just kidding.

Don D · November 2003

I could not disagree more with those who suggest this is a minimal thing that should be overlooked in favor of other, more positive, contributions of the ee. I have always maintained, and have told many employees, 'If you can consistently arrive at work 5 minutes late, then you can consistently arrive at work 5 minutes early'. It is a matter of self discipline and taking care of business. It is also not true that there are just some people who will always be late no matter what. The only thing remotely true about that notion is that 'there are some people who will always think that might be true no matter what'. This is a disciplinary issue, both a personal and a business one, and should be addressed as such.

TN HR · November 2003

I agree with Don 100%! Why are we suddenly rationalizing a clear lack of discipline. I personally believe in, and practice, the old "if you're not 15 minutes early, you're late concept". I hold everyone to a high standard when it comes to punctuality. In my opinion, it speaks volumes about the individual. Work schedules cannot be more clearly defined. If you are scheduled to begin work at 8:00, then 8:00 it is. 8:01 makes you late in my book. As to the orginal post, all I can say is that you do not have a good employee if she is tardy a lot. Sorry if I am offending anyone on this, but this is a sore subject for me.

Whatever · November 2003

Managment sets the hours. It is the employee's job to be on time. Late employees can and do disrupt scheduling (particularly in a factory setting). One of our managers wanted to experiment with allowing employees to make up time by taking shorter lunches. Shortly thereafter, at the start of day, there was no one in customer service. End of experiment. In this case, if after following a progressive disciplinary procedure (assuming you have one), the employee is still consistently late, the employee will have to be terminated.

junebug · November 2003

I appreciate everyone's input. She is indeed, at least to me, a good employee in all other respects. She is intelligent, hard working, and helps other employees when they need it. I am certain, however, once the disciplinary ball gets rolling, she will be fired. The nice thing about the docking of time would be that it would at least make the owner happy and could penalize her without starting toward firing.
This is an issue that is hard for me to even understand, in that if I was consistently arriving somewhere late, I would just leave earlier.

ray a · November 2003

Another angle. This ee may do a wonderful job when they are there, but being always tardy you may not be getting a full days worth of labor from them. Are they also late returning from lunch, do they take extra long breaks because they are late returning to work, are they slow getting started at the beginning of the day, do they start to wind down sooner than others? If discipline leads to termination, you may end up getting a replacement that is just as "good", but is on time every day, too. That would be a plus.

mwild31 · November 2003

Junebug - handle this well. Use some of what has said in this thread to help the employee understand the importance of being on time. Don't use the fact that you can dock pay, stop you from having a very direct conversation with the employee. If you believe in her as strongly as I think you do - sit her down for a frank, sympathetic but firm talk. Let her know that her continuing to come in late is hurting her credibility with the owner - and the owner is going so far as to want to dock pay. Let her know that even docking pay won't solve the problem - and it will only delay her eventual termination for continued tardy issues. Let her know that you guys can't control how she gets to work or her morning routine, but you can and will control the disruption to staff and company culture - it's up to her to change her habits if she wants to continue to work there. Don't let the conversation go towards, "but look at how much I do - I can do the job better than so-and-so" - no, stop that nonsense. My guess is that the owner of your company has a lot of say & control of who stays and goes & how much money they make - let her know this to emphasize the point that it's up to her and her alone to turn the boat around. Good luck.

Crout · November 2003

While I personally agree with the "15-minute early" ethic, I think there can be mitigating circumstances. Today I was technically 5 minutes late because I commute 42 miles one-way and was stuck in traffic. I am usually 30 minutes EARLY because I plan for bad traffic, but I'm not a magician. These things happen on occasion. My boss would never dream of making an issue of 5 minutes because she values my contribution to the company, and because everyone who works in Philly knows what it's like to be stuck in traffic.

Whatever · November 2003

There is a tremendous difference from being occasionally late to being late 2-3 times a week.

mwild31 · November 2003

x:-)

I love how some of these posts can turn into confessionals. Crout - I wouldn't bug you about tardy's if they were only occassional AND you have built a history of coming to work early AND it's not a disruption to staff. This may not sit well with some of our more 'black and white' forum members - but, I gotta be me.

Shawn · November 2003

I think we have missed an important point. When you boil it down, most companies expect the employee to be starting to actually work at their scheduled start time......Not just arriving in the building at the scheduled start time. I work in an office environment in NE Ohio. In the winter, folks who arrive "just on time" at 8:00am do not really start working until about 8:15am. They get to their desk, take off their coat, visit the restroom,go to the coffee machine and then start working.

I let employees know we expect them to begin working at the scheduled start time and tell them if they are the kind of person that has to get coffee and go through a routine, then get here early enough to complete that routine before the scheduled start time.

I do agree that employees who are typically punctual or early shouldn't be bothered when they are occasionally a few minutes late.

moneyman · November 2003

I agree that the point of a start time is that you should be ready to work at your start time. We have had that same problem of getting settled in with your coffee and your good mornings to people. And, wouldn't you know, those are the same people who can be cleaned up and have their purse sitting on their desk so that the minute that clock chimes, they are out the door. I've always thought that when your employee states you work an 8 hour day, you should be giving your employer 8 hours of work, not just 8 hours of your presence.

LindaS · November 2003

I agree with Don 100%!! Being constantly tardy (2-3 times per week is constant in my book) is not something I, as a manager, would tolerate. I also agree that being tardy is not a sign of a good employee. Everyone is given a start time and it is their responsibility to make it to work on time. They make the choice regarding what time to set the alarm clock, they make the choice regarding what time to leave for work, etc.. I DO understand that there are times a person is tardy for circumstances outside of their control but this isn't one of them. Begin the progressive discipline and if she CHOOSES not to shape up, she will be out of a job.

junebug · November 2003

Again, I thank each of you for your responses. They are well thought out. One last question, though. For a non-exempt employee, is the docking of 15 minutes, even if they are only 1 minute late, legal? If the owner wants this put into place, I don't want to do anything illegal.

LisaMN · November 2003

I'm not going to be much help on the legal aspects of docking pay. The company is implementing a blanket policy in response to an issue with one employee. That's just a bad idea, its a way to avoid addressing the issue with the appropriate person and will rope you into following a policy that does not allow for extenuating circumstances.

You stated that her tardiness can be dispruptive to your operations. Address it with her on that basis not as a moral failing.

mrsbowden · November 2003

I agree...there is a difference between being late every now and then b/c you can not predict traffic and being late 2 and 3 times a week. BUT, one very important issue to look at is......Is everyone else at work or working ON TIME? (we have to make sure we are not singling any one person out) Are you and all other manager/supervisors setting the same example. I have been in a case before were managers expect you to show up on time, to work and from lunch yet they are constently leaving work 5-15 minutes early. And as we all know employees watch and remember these things. x:) just my comments!

HGHAHR · November 2003

I was thinking the same thing. Everything has to be looked at in the context of what the norms are, regardless of stated rules. My experience is that owners tend to have a habit of noticing one individual that then gets under their skin, but not seeing the entire staff. Consistency is, as always, important. As for whether or not I agree that promptness should be addressed is irrelevant. If the boss says it's important, it's important.

pecohr · November 2003

Consistancy is important especially in how you discipline. I'm sorry but "Good employee, but tardy a lot" doesn't fly. If they were a good ee they would not be tardy a lot! It is supremely unfair to the ee's who make an effort to be on time to say this is a good ee. just my .02

junebug · November 2003

I understand your point of view. Personally, I detest tardiness, and believe it shows disrespect to those who are being met. I've been late to work once in over 25 years, and that was due to a flat tire. Even then I was able to phone the employer before starting time. On the flip side, I have an employee who is always at work 15 minutes early, but has a bad attitude, gossips, gripes, and is unproductive. Were I to be minus 1 employee, she would be my preference.

Don D · November 2003

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 11-07-03 AT 04:51PM (CST)[/font][p]I was recalling one job I had for a year that involved a 67 mile one-way commute and always being 10-20 minutes late. Then, as soon as I finished my violin solo while reading Crout's post, I returned to your original post in hopes that I would get something else. I didn't. It is not legal to refuse to pay non-exempts for time that you know or should have known they worked. In that regard, you cannot 'dock' her pay just because you want to somehow punish her for her behavior. Print this whole thing off and give it to your boss and take a 15 minute break while he reads it. It's his call.

(EDIT) I don't know how that happened. I ran two sentences together. I had the 67 mile commute and was NEVER late, in fact was always early. Then I was thinking about the guy who was always 10-20 minutes late. Actually I think James did that. I have never been late in my life over two or three times due to something I could not control!

mwild31 · November 2003

While you're printing everything off - fly a call to your state's employment law office as well & see what the rules are in Texas for docking pay.

junebug · November 2003

Is that a state agency of some kind? I'd like to do that.

mwild31 · November 2003

Try this link: [url]http://www.twc.state.tx.us/dirs/wdas/wdamap.html[/url]

It should give you at least some phone numbers to call in Texas to find the answers.

Pork · November 2003

you best call the Fed Wage and hour folks and you'll hear exactly the same thing that "Dandy Don" has so graciously provided without cost other than your membership to this forum. Flex time for all employees is a way of getting the individual with a great work history, but lateness/tardiness tarnishes her other wise great record. It also takes the emotions out of other employee concerns. Now given an agreed to different start time for all employees who need an adjustment in schedules and tardiness/lateness issues drives one to immediate and constant discipline and including termination.

Flexing start times is legal, Docking one's pay for company administered punishment is a direct entrance into the fed or state courts.

NO DOCKING OF ONE'S WAGES AND SALARIES!!!

pork

Don D · November 2003

It's the Texas Workforce Commission, the same folks who administer your unemployment insurance and tax programs. Don't bother to call. You will not find that any state law allows docking that the federal law prohibits. State laws can add to but not negate federal laws.

ray a · November 2003

Reminds me of a former director who had a 70 mile one drive. He loved to get calls in the winter from ee's who lived ~25 miles away who could not make it due to the snow. But, he was there and on time.

Kathie0554 · November 2003

Have you bothered to ask her why she's always late? It could be traffic, child care issues, etc.. Sometimes we look inward to our own set of values and decide that others should be like us and live up to those standards we have for ourselves. When my daughter was younger, getting her to school and settled was comparable to a full time job! It would take about 15-20 minutes just to get her settled with her teacher- she's autistic and in "those days" FMLA wasn't in existance. Thankfully I had a great boss who took the time to ask me why I was late and we rearranged my schedule. Of course there were times I was late after that but I stayed lated to make up the time.

Times have changed somewhat and it's really hard to find (and keep) good employees. Sometimes you just have to be flexible.

Good employee, but tardy a lot

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