>I understand your point of view. Personally, I detest tardiness, and >believe it shows disrespect to those who are being met. I've been >late to work once in over 25 years, and that was due to a flat tire. >Even then I was able to phone the employer before starting time. On >the flip side, I have an employee who is always at work 15 minutes >early, but has a bad attitude, gossips, gripes, and is unproductive. >Were I to be minus 1 employee, she would be my preference.
Reminds me of when I was teaching - the most difficutlt kids never got sick. I always figured their parents didn't want them at home either.
As I was reading all the posts I kept thinking what Kathie finally posted. Why is she late? If it is just her poor planning that is one thing, but if it is school/daycare or another "fixed" issue, maybe her schedule can be adjusted by 15 or 30 minutes to accomodate.
I sympathize with her. I am one of those people who is frequently a few minutes late - I make no excuses, it is my responsibility to be on time. But I sure was glad when I went into management and became exempt! Not to abuse it, just to have the flexibility. My staff know I work approximately 9-6. I might be there at 20 til 9 and I might be there at 10 after. And I leave anywhere from 5:45 to 7:15.
I bear that in mind though and don't expect perfect timeliness from them, except for the receptionist whose job duties require it. I'm not saying I shouldn't, I just don't have a different standard for them since I know myself.
You bring up a good point about the job itself having a timeliness requirement. At my last job, employees grumbled because there were a few people who were constantly late. They did not get reprimanded for it however since they did work a full 8 hour day. The ones grumbling were the front office staff who needed to be there and ready to work no later than 8:00. The other positions were not affected by the public so 10-15 minutes late starting and ending did not make a difference. The front office cried "it's not fair". Departmental supervisors were responsible for disciplinary action and if some didn't really care if someone was constantly making an 8:15 start time and making up the time we used to let it ride. The front office was told that it was a requirement to start on time and the other departments had requirements to work an 8 hour day. Finally a new HR Manager changed the rules and put a late/tardy policy into place, across the board, which included the exempts too. Everyone was assigned a work day and was expected to stick to it. The exempts had to declare a start time and stick to it (also 1 hour lunches). Any morning tardies and return from lunch tardies followed a 3 step discipline process up to termination. Most employees, including the front staff who complained feel that this went way overboard. But, they have to live with it now.
This reminds me about my prayers, "don't ask for something you don't want for you will surely get it; ask and you shall receive.
Everyone is now Blessed with a bad and demoralizing situation. You original solution was more in line with meeting the ee's needs and gettting a fair production for an 8 hour day regardless of the start time. After all the company must pay for the hours worked, if your customer is not effected by a flex time, then don't punish the other employees that are not effected by a "GO" time mentality. Same on your new HR!
We have this SAME employee here . . . he was tardy again this morning as a matter of fact. AND we have an attendance policy that says he should be fired by now. Management and the supervisors say he's an excellent employee WHEN he's here, so it would be a shame to let him go.
What have I, the mean HR Director, been saying? I say that he's pushing the attendance policy to the max, trying to see what he can get away with, he's playing the game and winning. Other employees see him coming in late, and getting away with it. We're not giving the on-time employees the respect they deserve by NOT doing something about it.
At my prodding, the managers have given him his final warning, but considering he was tardy this morning, it's unclear how FINAL the final warning was. I'm considering writing up the termination paperwork and handing it to the manager and supervisor; If something small like this can't get handled, I'm concerned about actually tackling something crucial in the future.
Good luck with your decision! I'll be curious to see how you handle it on your end!
As I was reading this one, I just thought of something. Since many are relunctant to terminate an otherwise good employee for continual tardies, hit the employee where it counts, the bank account. When annual increases come around make sure that he knows that although his performance is good on quality, the continual reminders about start time is still an issue that is against company policy. And although you don't want to terminate for this infraction, he will not be receiving a wage increase this year (well maybe a meager COL increase). That will usually wake them up!
For those jobs that arrival time is not critical, I find that I would also have a hard time terminating for tardies, even if they were regular. A warning that this will directly affect a year end review and thus wages may just do the trick.
Today I was here 35 minutes early to make up for being 5 minutes late the other day....my customary 30 minutes early PLUS 5 extra.....that's how guilty some of you have made me feel....I hope you're happy.
Whooooah! Somewhere way up there I seem to be saying I was always 10-20 minutes late when I was commuting over 60 miles. I was thinking about mr. late guy and I meant to say I was always 10-20 minutes EARLY! I have been late in my life maybe five or six times due to something I could not control!
I never thought I would see HR Managers/Directors disagreeing on something as basic and elementary as being on time for the established work day. I am amazed. Absolutely amazed.
Just updating the forum on my GOOD employee that was always tardy, I just walked him to the door for his last time.
In some cases we're sad to see him go because he worked hard when he was here, BUT I was fed up with his excessive tardiness and I was shocked at the response I got from him.
"I know it's time I go, I don't see how it's going to change, I'll always be tardy. I have a different job lined up where I will start at 8 a.m. (two hours later than here) and this just helps me make my decision a little easier."
Hopefully it's behind us, AND when the other employees see that we finally pulled the plug on our "hardest worker", maybe they'll all step it up a notch.
Where I work we allow our employees to have flexible work hours. We can come in anywhere between 6am and 9am. Anything after 9am (unapproved) is tardy. I know this can't be done at every place of business, but it works great for us and we have very low turn over.
I was thrilled to see this topic come up. Let me explain.. I have a customer service manager who has 12 employees working for him. They are all non-exempt employees who clock in and clock out. He has 2 employees who are consistantly late. In the mornings and even coming back from lunch. We have a policy that states..If you are tardy clocking in for that day it constitutes 1/2 occasion. You can get up to 6 occasions with the 7th as termination. Well, needless to say, both employees have 6.5 occasions. One more 1/2 will result in termination. He (the manager) would like the company to institute some verbage in the policy stating "it is under manager's discretion whether to give an occasion or not. He believes because of mitigating circumstances (both single mothers) they have a hard time making it to work and should somehow be excused.
I have a meeting tomorrow with all the managers and the owner of the company on this issue as it has caused some hard feelings etc. Please give me your thoughts.
We have the "at our discretion" phrase in EVERYTHING and I believe it helps us in some cases, but ultimately it appears as favoritism and ends up hurting us in the long run.
The supervisors and management use the "discretion" comment as an excuse to avoid situations they aren't comfortable with. Rather than enforce a policy, it's a cop out, (in our case), to have the discretion factor.
Good luck with that. I'm anxious to hear other's opinions.
Aren't you already giving the employee a chance by giving them up to 6.5 points "free"? If these 2 employees earned the 6.5 all by being tardy, that is 13 times! Isn't that enough? By the way, what time period do you use or is this a lifetime accumulation?
The manager's discretion just leaves you open to favortism and allegations of unfair treatment. If you have a policy, you need to apply it across the board. I think for the single mothers, got stuck at a train, there was an accident on the road type of circumstances are what giving the leeway of 6.5 points are for. Everyone will come up against something at some time.
The occasions are a rolling 12 months. Do you think 7 occasions and your out of here is to severe?? By the way..the same policy stands for hourly employees also. I really appreciate your comments.
Okay, why are they late coming back from lunch? Single mothers are no different than married mothers. Both have to take care of their children. It's how you organized your time and set your routine.
I am assuming this employee is non-exempt. If so you do have to be consistent on how you handle her hours (with everyone else.) Thsi is something that the DOL is insistent about. You can round (up and down) by 5/10/15 minutes, but have to do with all. So, I would pay her for what she worked and forget that idea. Also, I can't believe that 5-10 minutes pay docked would make any impact with her. So, wouldn't solve the problem anyway. I don't have time today to read through the 40+ responses, but did want to offer an idea. I too am one that doesn't have much tolerance for tardiness. (I guess I am one of the "old school" and don't understand why people don't understand that 8:00 means 8:00. I think I get this from my Father, Mr. Previous.) Anyway, I have a sister that is always late, but this has something to do with the area where she lives (Miami)which is highly hispanic, and I understand that from her that culture are not clock watchers. She also tries to cram too much in and is always trying to do one more thing. You said you were only about 30 people. I don't know if this would work for the entire company or a department, but what about trying a sort of flex time. Say that you can come in between 8:00-8:30 and leave between 5:00 - 5:30 (or you can even expend it for 1 hour windows). You can say that you must work 8 hours a day or 40 hours a week. This may meet more peoples' need and instead of being a morale problem, you could help turn it in to a morale booster. Then, if she is late outside of the flex time, it would definitely have to be addressed. (Has anyone ever talked with her about why this happens, school drop off problems, traffic, etc. so that you might be able to think of something else.)
I wonder what a judge will say when at his discretion he does not count a late on a white female but the company eventually terminates a black or over 50 male who is late? His discretion=eventual discrimination lawsuit. My $0.02 worth. DJ The Balloonman
I think your policy is pretty lenient. If this points are only racked up for tardies (and you did not mention if you got them for anything else) then you are granting at least 1 tardy a month. Most good employees I know probably wouldn't even get 1 every other month, and it would only be for those type of excuses that they can't control (the train stopped in the tracks, etc.) and not that they woke up late, just running behind etc.
Last thought, again like Balloonman, be consistent, that's all you need is for a manager to make a decision that has long reaching ramifications like discrimination. The manager might have what he thinks is a good reason for granting leniency in one case and not the other, but all it takes is for the other to scream "black, female, single mom, discrimination" and it will be costly even if you are right.
Tardiness, schmardiness, now I'm reeling from E Wart's assertion that being late is part of the Hispanic culture. Are you kidding? What kind of a statement is that? As I alluded to earlier, I think that tolerance for the occasional late arrival is more of an urban vs. suburban point of view. All you have to do is drive for five minutes anywhere near Miami to understand why you might have many employees who occasionally are late, Hispanic or not. After a while you realize that occasional lateness is part of the landscape and if you are rigid with it you will create all kinds of workforce problems. By the way, I am NOT referring to chronic lateness. Chronic lateness is a disciplinary issue. Yes, I know that many of you haven't been late so much as five minutes in 20 years, and I applaud that....I really do. But I also think that where you live can be as much of the reason as your personal work ethic. It's just different driving to work in Iowa then it is in a major metropolitan area....unless you view Waterloo as a major metropolitan area...then I can't help you. The bottom line is that comparing a densely populated area to one that is not is comparing apples to oranges.
Crout: When you get worked up, you sound just like me. Let me warn you that there are people out there who do little else except watch for that behavior and call my hand on it. x:-)
Don, do you mean someone will actually berate you for posting something that they do not agree with?? Someone would get in your face and express annoyance with you? Doesn't sound very Forumite to me.
Speaking of which; whatever happened to Texas Theresa, the attorney? She used to follow me around posting contrary opinions right after mine for days at a time. I miss her.
You may have a good worker (when he or she is there), but not necessarily a good employee. One option would be to go the verbal warning, written warning and ultimately termination. I believe that is the fair way to deal with this situation, especially if this has been going on for a while with no consequences. Or, perhaps you can be flexible with the employee's work hours, having her start 15 minutes later in the morning and working 15 minutes at the end of the day, if the schedule allows her to meet the requirements of the job. We have tried to be flexible with certain "jobs" (not "people") when possible.
Comments
>believe it shows disrespect to those who are being met. I've been
>late to work once in over 25 years, and that was due to a flat tire.
>Even then I was able to phone the employer before starting time. On
>the flip side, I have an employee who is always at work 15 minutes
>early, but has a bad attitude, gossips, gripes, and is unproductive.
>Were I to be minus 1 employee, she would be my preference.
Reminds me of when I was teaching - the most difficutlt kids never got sick. I always figured their parents didn't want them at home either.
I sympathize with her. I am one of those people who is frequently a few minutes late - I make no excuses, it is my responsibility to be on time. But I sure was glad when I went into management and became exempt! Not to abuse it, just to have the flexibility. My staff know I work approximately 9-6. I might be there at 20 til 9 and I might be there at 10 after. And I leave anywhere from 5:45 to 7:15.
I bear that in mind though and don't expect perfect timeliness from them, except for the receptionist whose job duties require it. I'm not saying I shouldn't, I just don't have a different standard for them since I know myself.
Everyone is now Blessed with a bad and demoralizing situation. You original solution was more in line with meeting the ee's needs and gettting a fair production for an 8 hour day regardless of the start time. After all the company must pay for the hours worked, if your customer is not effected by a flex time, then don't punish the other employees that are not effected by a "GO" time mentality. Same on your new HR!
PORK
What have I, the mean HR Director, been saying? I say that he's pushing the attendance policy to the max, trying to see what he can get away with, he's playing the game and winning. Other employees see him coming in late, and getting away with it. We're not giving the on-time employees the respect they deserve by NOT doing something about it.
At my prodding, the managers have given him his final warning, but considering he was tardy this morning, it's unclear how FINAL the final warning was. I'm considering writing up the termination paperwork and handing it to the manager and supervisor; If something small like this can't get handled, I'm concerned about actually tackling something crucial in the future.
Good luck with your decision! I'll be curious to see how you handle it on your end!
For those jobs that arrival time is not critical, I find that I would also have a hard time terminating for tardies, even if they were regular. A warning that this will directly affect a year end review and thus wages may just do the trick.
In some cases we're sad to see him go because he worked hard when he was here, BUT I was fed up with his excessive tardiness and I was shocked at the response I got from him.
"I know it's time I go, I don't see how it's going to change, I'll always be tardy. I have a different job lined up where I will start at 8 a.m. (two hours later than here) and this just helps me make my decision a little easier."
Hopefully it's behind us, AND when the other employees see that we finally pulled the plug on our "hardest worker", maybe they'll all step it up a notch.
I have a customer service manager who has 12 employees working for him. They are all non-exempt employees who clock in and clock out. He has 2 employees who are consistantly late. In the mornings and even coming back from lunch. We have a policy that states..If you are tardy clocking in for that day it constitutes 1/2 occasion. You can get up to 6 occasions with the 7th as termination. Well, needless to say, both employees have 6.5 occasions. One more 1/2 will result in termination. He (the manager) would like the company to institute some verbage in the policy stating "it is under manager's discretion whether to give an occasion or not. He believes because of mitigating circumstances (both single mothers) they have a hard time making it to work and should somehow be excused.
I have a meeting tomorrow with all the managers and the owner of the company on this issue as it has caused some hard feelings etc. Please give me your thoughts.
The supervisors and management use the "discretion" comment as an excuse to avoid situations they aren't comfortable with. Rather than enforce a policy, it's a cop out, (in our case), to have the discretion factor.
Good luck with that. I'm anxious to hear other's opinions.
The manager's discretion just leaves you open to favortism and allegations of unfair treatment. If you have a policy, you need to apply it across the board. I think for the single mothers, got stuck at a train, there was an accident on the road type of circumstances are what giving the leeway of 6.5 points are for. Everyone will come up against something at some time.
I don't have time today to read through the 40+ responses, but did want to offer an idea.
I too am one that doesn't have much tolerance for tardiness. (I guess I am one of the "old school" and don't understand why people don't understand that 8:00 means 8:00. I think I get this from my Father, Mr. Previous.) Anyway, I have a sister that is always late, but this has something to do with the area where she lives (Miami)which is highly hispanic, and I understand that from her that culture are not clock watchers. She also tries to cram too much in and is always trying to do one more thing.
You said you were only about 30 people. I don't know if this would work for the entire company or a department, but what about trying a sort of flex time. Say that you can come in between 8:00-8:30 and leave between 5:00 - 5:30 (or you can even expend it for 1 hour windows). You can say that you must work 8 hours a day or 40 hours a week. This may meet more peoples' need and instead of being a morale problem, you could help turn it in to a morale booster. Then, if she is late outside of the flex time, it would definitely have to be addressed. (Has anyone ever talked with her about why this happens, school drop off problems, traffic, etc. so that you might be able to think of something else.)
E Wart
His discretion=eventual discrimination lawsuit.
My $0.02 worth.
DJ The Balloonman
Last thought, again like Balloonman, be consistent, that's all you need is for a manager to make a decision that has long reaching ramifications like discrimination. The manager might have what he thinks is a good reason for granting leniency in one case and not the other, but all it takes is for the other to scream "black, female, single mom, discrimination" and it will be costly even if you are right.
Don, no one can ever sound just like you! And besides it's part of the fun and now we have two to "watch".
Elizabeth
Hmmmmm. For a compliment like that I will risk the critical feedback.