What religious expression is allowable?

The thread that discussed the atheist who was offended by a card that was religious, patriotic, and stupid at the same time got me thinking.

(Keep in mind I work for a religious non-profit organization so the expression of my personal faith is not only welcome but expected.)

I am a Christian. (I am not trying to preach here but rather explain how people like myself feel.) Its who I am. Its the very essence of my identity. Its the most important thing in my life. Now I understand that a work environment is a place where all people can work together free of harassment, intimidation, fear, etc, but I am not sure where the line is drawn.

On my wall in my office I have a small American flag I framed after September 11th. Does that offend anyone? I have a beautiful photo of my daughter playing in the ocean? Are we still ok? I have a jar of jelly beans, a scorecard from a particularly good round of golf, and a bottle of ibuprofen (Im in HR, remember?) Are we offended yet?

Ok.. I also have a Bible verse printed out and taped to the side of my computer moniter. Its about 2 inches in length and legible from about four feet.

Whose offended now?

Why have the verse there? Because my faith is who I am. It affects the way I make decisions. It is my source of strength and my ethical foundation.

Recently, a teacher's aide in Pennsylvania was suspended for one year without pay for wearing a cross necklace. (Link to the story: [url]http://kdka.com/local/local_story_114110626.html[/url])

I totally understand that I should in no way coerce anyone to believe the way I do or harass anyone for having a different belief or non-belief. But should I not be free to allow some minimal expression of who I am as long as its not inflammatory, excessive, or coercive?



Paul in Cannon Beach
«13

Comments

  • 84 Comments sorted by Votes Date Added
  • Paul, I can't believe you are HR, you should know better than have that verse on your computer, shame on you. (Just kidding folks!) Okay, here is a link to the story of the judge who is refusing an order from the federal court to remove the 10 commandments. [url]http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/14/alabama.tencommandments/index.html[/url]
    Fact is everyone is so damn concerned with offending people it gets sickening! While it may not be legally correct I have personal effects up in my office. I don't really care if others like them, or are offended by them. Much like you Paul they help identify who I am. At one place I used to work I put up the "qoute of the day" quite popular, no one ever complained.
    Now all of that being said, if you have on an offensive shirt, cursing etc, I would ask you to remove it or cover it up.
    The irony in the 10 commandments case, they are threating to fine the municipality............has anyone looked on the back of U.S. Currency lately...funny little phrase, "In God We Trust" is on every bill. Helluva seperation of church and state.
    Wonder what that school district would do if a teacher got a tatoo of a cross? Fire them?
    Ranted on enough, just had it up to here....(reaching high next to my head) with all these people who get offended at everything and the liberal moron judges who don't have the sense to throw some of these crap cases out of court!
    My $0.02 worth.
    DJ the Balloonman
  • I agree with the previous posts that in terms of personal expression--we've become hyper-sensitive. It will be like this until we can get to the middle.

    In the workplace tolerance levels are determined by the make up of the staff. In your case, a religious organization, you are likely surrounded by people who believe just as you do...and if they don't, they know the culture and play along.

    Religion becomes an issue when an employer is of one particular faither and gives employees its religious holidays credence, but not those of other faiths. Or it's OK to show the star of David or a Cross, but not something of a less common faith. The goal is put all faiths on equal footing...and we'll get there.

    The issue with the 10 Commandments and the court is hard for us to accept, but really it's a matter of law (I also agree with the assessment of our $$$$- it's just cost prohibitive to reprint, but that will come in time too). Although established as a Judeo-Christian country-and we've practiced that way for over 200 years- the founding fathers were clear that church should be separate from state. In essence, when you are judged in a court of law you are not to be judged based upon religious conviction but rather by the legal laws on the books. Often, these laws reflect one another, however, other times they do not. Removing the Commandments is not discrediting Christianity. Just putting it where it belongs, in the private lives of citizens.

    Faith is a tricky issue. It is as you say, just a part of who you are. So much faith is not just a particular center of worship (church/temple) but a way of life.

    : )
  • Hmmm... separation of church and state. Another hot topic. As I see it, this is a greatly misunderstood concept. The founding fathers clearly did include religion or faith as evidenced by their references to God their use of prayer leading down through the years and still practiced today in the house and senate. They were not adverse to the inclusion of God in their public matters and the law often had a religious foundation. But, they decided this country would not have a state church, such as the Church of England. The real separation was that the state would not control the church. Many of our founding fathers were influenced by the "church" and used their faith as a springboard for their decision making.
  • I believe you should. What about "diversity" that is preached so much? Hmm. As always, whenever a wrong is trying to be corrected to make things fair, it's carried way overboard - so much so, that it not only doesn't correct the problem, but adds a new one. The people I associate with are reasonable. People I know only as an acquaintance are reasonable; who are all these unreasonable people causing all this trouble?!
  • Okay, I'm going to wade right in with my shoelaces tied together and my eyes wide shut. x;-)

    Many of our employees wear crucifixes or have other symbols of their faith and beliefs on their person or in their office. I wear a St. Christopher's medal that sometimes falls out of my shirt and I haven't seen anyone run screaming from the room yet (that usually happens only on Fridays, when I don't wear a necktie, though). I would be the first to arrange a private place for a Muslim to say his prayers if necessary. However, I am keenly attuned to proselytizing (spelling?) and we prohibit any employee from trying to share their faith with someone who does not want to listen. We treat it essentially as we would any other case of harassment. So far, no problems.

    In your specific case, Paul, I would not be offended by your Bible verse. I would only have a problem if you wanted to engage someone in a discussion about it who did not want to listen.
  • Being out of town for the past couple of days, I missed the thread on atheism and by the time I caught up with it, it had run its course. Unfortunately, with some hurt feelings. I mention that because, I too am a Christian and I have had the same questions that Paul has asked. SandiF emphasized the idea of "reasonableness". That is the problem, what I find reasonable, you may not.

    Sometimes, I envy people like Paul who are not only encouraged to show their faith, but are expected to use their worldview in everything they do. But, I work in a very diverse environment. I need to be careful, and sometimes it is hard to know where to draw the line. I have a very well developed worldview, but to do my job properly I MUST respect those with opposing worldviews. It is a balancing act.

    It would have been interesting to have had conversations with many of you following the 9/11 disaster. We have a Muslim ee who ended up in the psych ward of the hospital for several weeks following 9/11. He had to deal with a child who was harassed at school and in the neighborhood - kids were calling he and his family murderers just for being Muslim. Guilt by association. The ee suspected that people at work were talking about him behind his back (they were not) and he cracked after a few weeks of this. His coworkers were very supportive of him. And he is again a productive ee. People looked beyond their beliefs and saw a human being who needed help and support and gave it to him.

    Personally, I found that saying referred to on the atheist thread as offensive. I see it as using the Lord's name in vain. Reading through some of the posts, some found the first part to be offensive, others found the second part to be offensive.

    After all this rambling, to answer Paul's question, I believe minimal expression of who I am is acceptable. The key is the degree of expression and how close it comes to being reasonable. But, we must draw a line somewhere, or else we will be forced to allow things that go beyond the bounds of decorum.
  • Pretending for a moment that I have any real influence, I guess I would suggest the following guidelines for acceptable personal expression of faith in a secular workplace:

    1. Personal religious expression should be consistent with all other forms of expression within the workplace: i.e. not obtrusive, not offensive to a reasonable person, and within the established boundaries of the organization's culture

    2. Religious expression must not become or appear to be coercive, either directly or indirectly. There should be no pressure or value to being of a certain faith. All faiths will be viewed as positive moral influences to be respected individually and organizationally without any official endorsement of one particular faith.

    3. Company resources (time, meeting rooms, or communication mediums) will not be used for expressing personal religious views.


    What am I leaving out?

    Paul in Cannon Beach
  • Holidays? The typical recognized holidays include Christmas and sometimes Good Friday. What about Jewish holidays, Muslim holy days, etc. We allow people to use vacation or personal time for religious holidays other than what is already recognized, but I'm not forced to use vacation or personal time for Christmas.
  • Paul, great input. Humor never hurts! I want to believe the Bible verse you have in your cubicle is not offensive to anyone including muslims, jews, atheists, hindous, buddists, Saudi Arabia, Irak, etc.

    Also, I wonder: Would an atheist work in your organization? Thanks.

    Alex
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-15-03 AT 01:34PM (CST)[/font][p]Alex,

    I don't think the verse would be offensive to anyone. The verse is 1 John 2:15-16 and its a reminder of where my priorities are to be.

    On the other hand, what is offensive is essentially a subjective judgement. I never really thought a cross necklace was offensive either but I guess it can be.

    Regarding where I work, my situation is so unique and different from the workplaces of the majority of forum participants that its not really worth discussing. What I do here on a daily basis would make your jaw drop. I am as much a pastor as I am a HR manager. I live in a fantasy world and I know that.

    My concern is that we have gone overboard in trying to eradicate any hint of personal religious expression. Simultaneously, companies are trying to encourage their employees to be ethical. There is irony there somewhere.

    Paul in Cannon Beach
  • "My concern is that we have gone overboard in trying to eradicate any hint of personal religious expression. Simultaneously, companies are trying to encourage their employees to be ethical."


    Ah... the crux of the matter. What is the foundation of ethics? What is good? What is evil? What is the basis for determining right from wrong?
  • I believe I work in what is the most opposite place from Paul's environment - a casino. You cannot believe the melting pot of people who work here - every Asian country you can think of, South America, Central America, Iraq, Iran, Jordon, Tonga - all working for Native Americans. Talk about cultural and religious diversity - and they both become problematic at times. Send out the noose if you like, but I have to tell you it is the American Christians - race makes no difference - who are most likely to cause a ruckus. "This is America, founded under God, it's giving you a great life - how can you not believe?" Ah well, it hasn't happened for a while and God willing xpray (think I just gave myself away) it won't happen again.
  • It's interesting. I checked out that teacher who was suspended. They've been asking her since 1997.....that's FIVE YEARS.....to simply tuck the cross into her shirt where it can't be seen by her students, and she has consistently refused. I'm sorry, but it looks to me like this teacher was looking to publicly advocate her religion to her students and I think that's out of bounds in a public school. I think she obviously had an agenda, and backed the school into a corner. I would have suspended her as well. What she did is miles apart from having a small biblical verse tacked to a computer. And as a matter of fact, I'm a Christian too.
  • Paul, your question is of great personal and professional interest to me. Yes, I believe people are entitled to minimal expression of their faith in the workplace. Where I believe such expressions must be truly unobtrusive is in government settings. I happen to be a strong proponent of the separation of church and state, and many responsible members of the clergy feel the same way, even if means removing Christian symbols from public settings, eliminating school prayer, etc. They understand what history has (or should have) taught us: A union of government and religion is not good for either one.

    Regarding the ten commandments in the courthouse: If I were a member of a minority religion, I would hate to be trying to defend myself in a court where there was a suggestion that the judgments would be, at least in part, based on a faith that was not mine. I do not believe that judge should be a judge, because I doubt he passed constitutional law by a very wide margin.

    Regarding the teacher aide with the cross necklace: This isn’t as big a deal to me, because it’s an expression of an individual’s beliefs rather than an institutional position. On the other hand, I think if an employer has the right to tell someone they can’t wear a small ring in their nose (which may be culturally based), then they can tell them not to wear a cross. I’m an HR director at a school, and I wouldn’t disallow either.

    Respectfully,

    WW


  • Leslie,
    Ironically there is more prayer in your place of employment then any other. "Dear God let me get that Ace" (mutter by an athiest no doubt) "God d*%n you haven't dealt me crap all night", "Please God let me win this hand".
    As for the teacher and the school district, sometimes the easiest way to address something like this is to ignore it and bring no attention to it. If it is sincere, the person is known to be religious I think most would say "That's just Sally" and not think twice about it. By making an issue of things, I think we get into the situation where there is always a lawyer willing to battle a point.
    My $0.02 worth.
    DJ The Balloonman
  • DJ, I struggle with your advice for the HR people at that school district to ignore their own policies. That's not best practice. Would you advise the HR people to ignore policy if it WAS a nose ring and not a cross? I don't think so. Maybe we need a separation of church and HR. A joke, folks, a joke! Relax! Have some wine! (snort).
  • As is the case with many of the posts out there, I felt compelled to read this one all the way through. (Sometimes I just skim to get the general idea)

    I agree that in most cases, as long as the employee is not "forcing" her beliefs on others and the items in her work area are not distracting, I don't have a problem with them. Several employees have angels, etc.

    After 9/11, my asst. gave everyone prayer candles. Some of us are openly religious, some of us are not. Not one of us was offended by the prayer printed on the candle holder. Not everyone chose to light their candle. If she had asked us to join her in prayer, I would have objected.

    Recently, one of our school directors suggested prayer as a way to resolve conflict between two employees. The conflict was not related to religious beliefs. This, of course, was NOT OK and the director was disciplined.

    Also, as I've said in other posts, we are in the process of opening a new preschool inside a church, and the curriculum will have a Christian component. None of our other schools have this component. I've had several employees request a transfer because they'd like a place to work where they can express their Christian views freely. I've explained to them that we are not a Christian company. Employees will still not be allowed to impress their personal views on others. We are simply adjusting the curriculum because of our "audience" at that particular school.
  • You should, Paul. As a non-religious person I can not imagine a situation where I'd be offended by a religious picture, expression, etc, that was hanging in someone's personal space. I myself have the "Serenity Prayer" hanging in my cube and recite it in my head to get me through the really tough days. I also have a red ribbon hanging inside my cube which my Nana begs me to keep there as protection against La Malocchia - the evil eye. Many assume its an AIDS support ribbon, they can think what they want, its my ribbon. Post 9/11, many co-workers sent me pictures of the twin towers with Jesus above, arms open, welcoming the souls to Heaven. Many sent me prayers and said God would protect me. I asked them to thank him when they prayed- I was touched that they were giving me comfort. Maybe I'm just more open minded than most people but as long as no one tries to push their beliefs on me in a way that I find insulting or uncomfortable, I really don't care how folks worship or what they believe in. I am more often awed-and sometimes jealous -that someone can have such a strong faith in something they can not see or touch in a way I can not. Don't let overly sensitive nit-pickers bring you down, Paul. Just smile.
  • I totally agree with you...I, too am a Christian, though apparently not quite as bold as you are. Where I work (industrial) it is interesting. We allow our employees to hold a Wednesday Bible Study (during their unpaid lunch break) in a training room. Even when something is scheduled during the day in this training room, it is made available for the Bible Study. However, we have recently been told not to use the phrase "Keep 'name' in your prayers". Now we must word it as "keep 'name' in your thoughts" because somebody might be offended. Worse, yet, is that the manager of our plant, is a Christian, and a Sunday School teacher, and he is the one mandating this. I think it is a sad state that our country is in.

    I have a recent quote from Dennis Miller on my wall (in rather large print, probably legible from 4-5 feet, where he was responding to the judges of our country who declared the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional...ultimately he blasted the judges pretty well, and I give him a lot of credit for that.

    Sorry I don't have any legal input on this, but the more I read of this and the responses, the angrier I got. Just felt that I had to add my opinion.
  • First of all I am Jewish. My company is multi everything. There is a difference between a public employer, a relgious private employer and a secular private employer. I am always acutely aware that this company cannot take an official stance for any religion. However, if a few employees in the cafeteria wish to quietly say a prayer before eating, who cares. However, as happened once, an employee wants to distribute religious literature in the cafeteria, it will not be allowed. Since we are manufacturing facility, no jewelry can be worn
    that cannot be tucked in under a shirt. We have had a few complaints, but it is a safety issue. Finally, on 9/11 and the day after, the company closed down for a few minutes of silent contemplation. If during this time people chose to pray, and most did, it was not offensive to anyone.
  • Rad and Whatever,

    Your posts summed it up for me. And like you Rad, I have a prayer hung in my office called the "A Parent's Prayer". It starts with "Oh heavenly father, make be a better parent". It's how I feel, and it couldn't have been said better. And I'll take any help I can get to be a good parent.

    Sandi

    (SandiF)
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-18-03 AT 01:01PM (CST)[/font][p]I guess the one thing that I find objectionable - and I'll throw it in the ring - is that we are making religious accommodations for everyone but Christians.

    There, I said it.

    Your company is supposed to allow you to wear clothing or hats that are appropriate and mandated by your religion.

    But Christians are not required to wear hats or clothing.

    Your company is to allow you prayer breaks.

    Christians are not "required" to pray at certain times, and are
    admonished (in John?)to go to their closet and pray.

    Your company is required to allow you time off for your religious celebrations.

    Christians are lucky enough to have most of the celebrations as recognized
    holidays.

    I don't have a problem with my company allowing any of the above mentioned items. I do have a problem when people take this out of context and complain if I were to wear a cross that they might see peaking out of my neckline once in a while or if I have a bible verse in my office that means something to me. We are allowing very big symbols of faith to be displayed, however, when a Christian chooses to display something - it's objectionable.

    I agree that the line is drawn when a person of any faith (or non-faith) chooses to preach to those who are not interested, whether they are customers or fellow employees. However, I am not at all angered if someone were to say to me - "I'll keep you in my prayers." Whatever their faith - I appreciate the good word.

    If that's what they mean to an HR person. Hmmmmmm.....perhaps they were praying for me to get another job...... /:)

    So, am I just ranting or does that make sense? :-?





  • Hear Hear!, Zanne!. To the uninitiated, that means AMEN. Only one thing wrong with your post....and that's that it didn't go on long enough. I agree that a cross should not be any more or less offensive than a head-dot, a piece of clothing, a six-pointed star, a head dress, a ring on another finger, a string of beads, a black book, leaving work before dark on Friday, a multi-receptacle candle holder, a low chant, a loud chant, bowing to the East or a Persian rug surrounded by brass vases. Unless one suggests to another that he should also carry one, it should be no one's business. Not even that of a pompous judge.
  • Count me in your corner, Zanne.
  • I'm glad someone finally said it. I support everything you said, Zanne. And, it's also exciting to see so many believers out there.
  • Thank you! You said it very well!
  • While I'm not as religious as I would like to . I feel that we should be able to demonstrate who we are as long as we do not coerse, obligate or enforce our beliefs or opinions unto others.
    i agree with your statement.
  • I'm going to throw my two cents in. In answer to Paul's original post, I do believe that in the environment he's in - his demonstration of his faith, either through visuals, songs on the radio, etc. is completely appropriate.

    When I was in the Air Force (5 years), I worked in the chapels. In that environment, we had to accomodate so many religions - it became a real talent. I worked with Rabbi's, Eastern Orthodox Priests, Roman Catholic Priests, Lutherans, Baptists, Mormans, Muslims and Wiccans. I found that while I was in the Air Force, there was much more tolerance of differing faiths (majority of folks) than out in the 'civilian' world, but religious displays were kept to a minimum within work areas and on the body (due to uniform restrictions). For me, that works the best.

    I have a strong faith in God and I identify myself as a Lutheran. I don't believe that people need to evangelize (and I don't mean that negatively) at work - however, if people of like mind get together and want to discuss issues during lunch or over breaks, then they can. I don't mind if people wear crosses or other religious symbols on their person or in their work space - as long as it doesn't offend a co-worker & that those same employees don't complain when someone of a different faith than theirs wears/displays their own religious items. This policy is consistent and firmly held within our organization.
  • A strange coincidence - a friend sent me this today:

    THE NEW SCHOOL PRAYER

    Now I sit me down in school
    Where praying is against the rule
    For this great nation under God
    Finds mention of Him very odd.
    If Scripture now the class recites,
    It violates the Bill of Rights.
    And anytime my head I bow
    Becomes a Federal matter now.

    Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
    That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
    The law is specific, the law is precise.
    Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.

    For praying in a public hall
    Might offend someone with no faith at all.
    In silence alone we must meditate,
    God's name is prohibited by the state.

    We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
    And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
    They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
    To quote the Good Book makes me liable.

    We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
    And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
    It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,
    We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.

    We can get our condoms and birth controls,
    Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
    But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
    No word of God must reach this crowd.
    It's scary here I must confess,
    When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
    So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
    Should I be shot; My soul please take!
    Amen

Sign In or Register to comment.