This has been an excellent thread, many good, well thought out responses. Many of us have very strong convictions and in some cases those convictions are grounded in opposing points of view.
Though my faith is vastly different than Scott Orr's and I do not completely share his stance on religion in the workplace, I can understand his concerns. I, and I suspect most if not all of us, would not accuse Scott of being a devil worshiper if he were hired into our organizations. That is highly disrespectful. I have stated in previous posts and agree very strongly with those who say there is room in the workplace for religious symbolism, such as a Bible, wearing a cross, a poster, whatever. But, I also would side with people like Scott and others who are concerned with people, of any stripe, evangelizing during work hours or on the premises. I believe in the example Scott gave that his former supervisor crossed a line, her behavior was inappropriate for the workplace.
When one is "on the clock" then their time belongs to the employer, they have no right to evangelize. Evangelization during work hours is a form of cheating, cheating the employer of work that they are paying for. That is not just my opinion, but I have heard that from the church pulpit, too.
I'm beginning to think defining "reasonable" is like defining "how high is up".
It is true what they say - If you want to get along with someone, never discuss Politics or Religion.
We have had several thought provoking and emotionally charged comments. I can see a trend that we are singling out those who are extremists in their religious zeal (or I could use Zealots) but that probably does not represent the normal Christian, Jew, or Muslim. I would wager that we all agree that taking your religion (or non-religion) to an extreme and trying to convert people or just to "get in your face" is not acceptable.
Our pastor encourages all of us to go out and find people and lead them to God. However, he reminds us that if they are already in a religion that they are comfortable with - leave them alone. Our actions as Christians (in this particular instance) speak louder than our words. And it's true. I believe it's scott orr who had a Christian demean him and perhaps he now feels that's what all Christians are like. That isn't what should be happening.
Whatever: I too am Jewish and live in an Christian evangelical part of the world. I've learned to keep quiet (mostly) and to just smile when people invite me to their Churches. When asked what Church I attend I usually just say I don't or I don't discuss religion at work. I have found that most folks, even my husband, don't understand why we are sometimes upset at having religion pushed at us. When I was growing up, in New York City, I attended a public school that was at least 99% Jewish (staff and students). However, every day at assembly we said a Christian prayer.
If you want to find out how sincere most people are about just wanting "religion" in the schools, offer to have alternating prayers: Christian, Hindu, Bhuddist, Jewish, Muslim - and see what kind of reception you get.
Oh well - I'll hop off my soapbox now and return to my corner.
I do not prejudge anyone or their belief system. I know this person was not like most christians. However, because of this person we need laws that prohibit people like her from conducting herself that way at work. Like I always say, actions speak louder than words. Small personal tokens of faith truely do not bother me either. I have a live and let live philosophy. It's when the boundries are crossed that is upsetting to me.
I am one of those people who chose to not enter conversations on religion, politcs OR sex with any regularity but Don's comments about how he was raised regarding the Jewish faith reminding me of a couple things.. My grandmother. .a staunch Methodist, 'turned her head to the wall and went to bed for 3 days' when she found out my Dad was marrying a Catholic. My mom, a staunch Catholic, still believes there are only Catholics in heaven. My high school English teacher, a staunch Southern Baptist told our class that she would "rather die" than take ill and have to go to a Catholic hospital.All Christian denominations if I am not mistaken. I am with Whatever, I think we have a long way to go, but what is important is that we keep trying.
Sunny, How true! "We definitely have a long way to go, but what is important is that we keep trying." Whatever denomination, or religious convictions you have or don't have, we need to be more tolerant and accepting of the others around us, not forcing our way onto them.
For instance, I believe in keeping the Ten Commandments in the courthouse. It is off to the side of the rotunda, after you walk past a statue of the grecian godess, Venus. No one has asked that the this statue be removed. If we can tolerate it, we can tolerate the Ten Commandments. If you don't believe in them, put up your own monument. I'll tolerate it, whether I believe in what you do.
Someone said that the separation of church and state meant that we were not to have one government-sanctioned religion. That's true. But the liberal press has turned it to mean something else. Alabama's own constituion says that our state government is derived from "the invoking of the favor of the Almighty God." Now, I'm not saying you have to be a believer in God (Christian or Jew) to live here, but isn't it comforting to know that at least one person in authority is using the basic moral guidelines of the Ten Commandments when they pass a judgment? After all, the Ten Commandments were the root of the European and English law that our own laws were based on.
As a last point, Judge Moore has asked that the Ten Commandments be left until his appeal has been reviewed. If he had been sentenced to death for a murder, he would not be executed until all of his appeal processes had been exhausted. That's all he's asking now.
I guess from my name you know my stand. But I am respectful of others regardless if I agree. But when I disagree or don't understand, I do try to research until I find out what's what before I take a side or express an opinion.
So tell us Paul. 65 replies later....does this give you enough for your presentation? There will be a brief examination now. How about a summary of all the various posts and what you have learned from them. You may begin.
As HR professionals working with this issue, I think we need to be mindful of when an employee's pursuit of their rights, tramples on the rights of others (regardless of religious convictions) and respond according to the work environment and policies established within the organization. Some work environments are more tolerant of religion at work and some are not and therefore employees should be made aware of the established company policies.
I'm far from a constitutional lawyer, but I have read most of the constitution and I can't for the life of me find the verbage "separation of church and state". But yet the media always says," The separation of church and state in the constitution prohibits..." The first amendment is about congress not passing any laws in respect of one religion. How that has morphed into what judges put in their courts or a cross necklace on a teacher is beyond me.
We have a local city that is being sued by someone because there is a cross on top of a hill that is city property. Because the city maintains the property someone complained that it violates "separation of church and state". Whatever.
Paul I don't have an answer for your question. There's a time and place for everything and I try to go by that.
The city I moved to in 1968 and still live in was founded by a church. As a relatively young church, it was growing through extensive missionary work. Every school assembly started with a prayer - arms crossed. I marked myself as different by folding my hands in front of my stomach, and crossing myself at prayer's end. The "discussions" we would have at parties and school functions made those occasions unfun - every effort was made to convert those of us of different faiths. Years later a 19-year-old missionary baptized my 15-year-old son without my knowledge or consent. You should have heard the conversation between myself and the bishop (leader) of the missionary's ward (church). The discomfort and anger these situations engendered is something I would not wish on anyone, and I go out of my way to ensure it does not happen.
Today, my Christian tenets are firmly in place. My view of organized religion, however, is not. I know the Ten Commandments, I don't need them force-fed to me on the steps of a court house. And I don't think that anyone who does not know them needs it either. Every belief has right and wrong. Sorry if your belief says it's okay to kill - our law says it's not.
I myself wear a dimunitive cross. My boss wears a huge Greek Orthodox cross, has holy pictures on her computer wallpaper and scriptures hanging off her computer. We have folks who pray to the East, some with jewels in their forehead, others with little Buddha statues. I don't even know what they do at a Tongan church, but I'm sure that group of employees talk about it. As long as no one has a problem with it, I don't say a word. Someone does, and we will be going at it.
Probably not a popular point of view here, but the workplace and public schools should be secular, and we must separate church and state - by whatever verbiage. We are too much of a melting pot to do otherwise.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-21-03 AT 09:59AM (CST)[/font][p]Thanks Ray - that's better. I love this forum. Someone can say better what you mean than you can!
Oh, by the way Ray, the weather hasn't been all that hot, and the gas crunch is supposed to ease next week. Y'all come on down and visit!
Yes, I was emailing my daughter yesterday and she said the gas crunch is expected to imoprove by next week. I follow the temperature out there and weather.com says 100 - 105 for the next few days. We are flying out this coming Monday and staying until Saturday. Expect to make a trip up to the Grand Canyon.
I love some of the town names out there. My daughter lives in Surprise. My granddaughter just started walking, so I'm real excited about this trip.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-21-03 AT 03:55PM (CST)[/font][p]My apologies if I've offended anyone, not my intention. Duly noted and taken care of Paul.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-21-03 AT 11:47PM (CST)[/font][p]The thread has been enlightening and sometimes disheartening. As for a summary, Don D, I guess I would just say that faith is ultimately a personal issue. That means, we need to respect our differences and protect our ability to be who we are without infringing on others rights. On my own time, if given the opportunity, will I share my faith? I hope so.
In some ways, religious harrassment is similar to sexual harrassment. We know that flirting and romance will never totally leave the work environment as long as there are groups of people working together. Our goal is to eliminate innappropriate expressions of sexuality. Asking someone out for coffee is hardly the same as implying that a weekend away with me will get you a promotion.
In the same way, I think we need to accept and allow ourselves to be spiritual people in an environment that respects all opinions and faiths.
I have studied most religions and I believe they all teach some form of respect for others and love for fellow man. With that as a premise, I am hopeful we the faithful can all play nicely. What's the point of spirituality if it doesn't help us become more gracious individuals when grace is needed.
Thank you Paul. I hope that some, if not all, of my replies were in some way helpful to you. I must say that I truely believe that if we accept all of our differences in a non-judgemental way, we will be better in the end.
Hi, Paul. I, too, am a Christian HR professional in the beautiful state of Oregon. It's a real challenge, isn't it! For instance, I'm discouraged from discussing things related to my faith (which is of utmost importance to me), and we had to change the name of the yearly Christmas party to call it our "holiday party." In light of the cries I hear so often about free speech, where is my freedom to make my faith known. As you said, not wanting to preach or coerce anyone else to feel or believe as I do, but the inequality is very frustrating. At our company we put a little inspirational tagline at the end of our Emails. I put the "whatsoever things are lovely...think on these things" verse as my tagline, and was asked to remove it. Pretty offensive stuff, huh?
HS, I've been following this thread very closely, and thought I had read every post. It seems from your post that you've probably removed yours, but I have to say, I think this was a very thoughtful, unoffending discussion - a blending of ideas and some insight of how we came to be who we are, where we are, and how we've arrived at the conclusions we have to dealing with such issues in the workplace.
Thank you to everyone who contributed their thoughts. The thread has given me a lot to think about. My apologies to anyone who was in any way offended, especially HS whose insightful comments I have enjoyed on this forum for a long time.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-22-03 AT 10:29AM (CST)[/font][p]I wasn't asked to remove anything. I chose to do so, because I realized that some may view the post as offensive to them because it mentioned (dare I say it?) Jesus. I saw it as a touching story and not a religious statement, but in hindsight could see why it might be offensive.
Comments
Though my faith is vastly different than Scott Orr's and I do not completely share his stance on religion in the workplace, I can understand his concerns. I, and I suspect most if not all of us, would not accuse Scott of being a devil worshiper if he were hired into our organizations. That is highly disrespectful. I have stated in previous posts and agree very strongly with those who say there is room in the workplace for religious symbolism, such as a Bible, wearing a cross, a poster, whatever. But, I also would side with people like Scott and others who are concerned with people, of any stripe, evangelizing during work hours or on the premises. I believe in the example Scott gave that his former supervisor crossed a line, her behavior was inappropriate for the workplace.
When one is "on the clock" then their time belongs to the employer, they have no right to evangelize. Evangelization during work hours is a form of cheating, cheating the employer of work that they are paying for. That is not just my opinion, but I have heard that from the church pulpit, too.
I'm beginning to think defining "reasonable" is like defining "how high is up".
We have had several thought provoking and emotionally charged comments. I can see a trend that we are singling out those who are extremists in their religious zeal (or I could use Zealots) but that probably does not represent the normal Christian, Jew, or Muslim. I would wager that we all agree that taking your religion (or non-religion) to an extreme and trying to convert people or just to "get in your face" is not acceptable.
Our pastor encourages all of us to go out and find people and lead them to God. However, he reminds us that if they are already in a religion that they are comfortable with - leave them alone. Our actions as Christians (in this particular instance) speak louder than our words. And it's true. I believe it's scott orr who had a Christian demean him and perhaps he now feels that's what all Christians are like. That isn't what should be happening.
If you want to find out how sincere most people are about just wanting "religion" in the schools, offer to have alternating prayers: Christian, Hindu, Bhuddist, Jewish, Muslim - and see what kind of reception you get.
Oh well - I'll hop off my soapbox now and return to my corner.
How true! "We definitely have a long way to go, but what is important is that we keep trying." Whatever denomination, or religious convictions you have or don't have, we need to be more tolerant and accepting of the others around us, not forcing our way onto them.
For instance, I believe in keeping the Ten Commandments in the courthouse. It is off to the side of the rotunda, after you walk past a statue of the grecian godess, Venus. No one has asked that the this statue be removed. If we can tolerate it, we can tolerate the Ten Commandments. If you don't believe in them, put up your own monument. I'll tolerate it, whether I believe in what you do.
Someone said that the separation of church and state meant that we were not to have one government-sanctioned religion. That's true. But the liberal press has turned it to mean something else. Alabama's own constituion says that our state government is derived from "the invoking of the favor of the Almighty God." Now, I'm not saying you have to be a believer in God (Christian or Jew) to live here, but isn't it comforting to know that at least one person in authority is using the basic moral guidelines of the Ten Commandments when they pass a judgment? After all, the Ten Commandments were the root of the European and English law that our own laws were based on.
As a last point, Judge Moore has asked that the Ten Commandments be left until his appeal has been reviewed. If he had been sentenced to death for a murder, he would not be executed until all of his appeal processes had been exhausted. That's all he's asking now.
I guess from my name you know my stand. But I am respectful of others regardless if I agree. But when I disagree or don't understand, I do try to research until I find out what's what before I take a side or express an opinion.
Thanks for letting me vent!
As HR professionals working with this issue, I think we need to be mindful of when an employee's pursuit of their rights, tramples on the rights of others (regardless of religious convictions) and respond according to the work environment and policies established within the organization. Some work environments are more tolerant of religion at work and some are not and therefore employees should be made aware of the established company policies.
We have a local city that is being sued by someone because there is a cross on top of a hill that is city property. Because the city maintains the property someone complained that it violates "separation of church and state". Whatever.
Paul I don't have an answer for your question. There's a time and place for everything and I try to go by that.
Today, my Christian tenets are firmly in place. My view of organized religion, however, is not. I know the Ten Commandments, I don't need them force-fed to me on the steps of a court house. And I don't think that anyone who does not know them needs it either. Every belief has right and wrong. Sorry if your belief says it's okay to kill - our law says it's not.
I myself wear a dimunitive cross. My boss wears a huge Greek Orthodox cross, has holy pictures on her computer wallpaper and scriptures hanging off her computer. We have folks who pray to the East, some with jewels in their forehead, others with little Buddha statues. I don't even know what they do at a Tongan church, but I'm sure that group of employees talk about it. As long as no one has a problem with it, I don't say a word. Someone does, and we will be going at it.
Probably not a popular point of view here, but the workplace and public schools should be secular, and we must separate church and state - by whatever verbiage. We are too much of a melting pot to do otherwise.
Oh, by the way Ray, the weather hasn't been all that hot, and the gas crunch is supposed to ease next week. Y'all come on down and visit!
I love some of the town names out there. My daughter lives in Surprise. My granddaughter just started walking, so I'm real excited about this trip.
In some ways, religious harrassment is similar to sexual harrassment. We know that flirting and romance will never totally leave the work environment as long as there are groups of people working together. Our goal is to eliminate innappropriate expressions of sexuality. Asking someone out for coffee is hardly the same as implying that a weekend away with me will get you a promotion.
In the same way, I think we need to accept and allow ourselves to be spiritual people in an environment that respects all opinions and faiths.
I have studied most religions and I believe they all teach some form of respect for others and love for fellow man. With that as a premise, I am hopeful we the faithful can all play nicely. What's the point of spirituality if it doesn't help us become more gracious individuals when grace is needed.
Paul in Cannon Beach
Thanks for an opportunity to vent a little.
LJ
By the way Paul, great finish. Hat's off. xclap
Paul in Cannon Beach