I agree and disagree with several different posts here. I thank you all for taking part and giving your two cents. This is why I come here: to ask other HR professionals for their opinions/knowledge/guidence. However sesitive or insensitive one (or many) may seem, info is info and I thank you. On the other hand, I do have to agree with Don that people are streching things a bit--which is of course very natural. You look at a situation, picture yourself in it, maybe even add some of your experiences in life like it TO IT. Simply put: My manager singles out one out of 8 of us to socialize outside of work with. She does not keep this fact discrete, NOR out of the workplace. They frequently chit chat in front of others about their relationship and the things they do together (ie: manager said to subordinate last week "If you get to the restaurant before me go ahead and order for me, YOU know what I like"). It's irritating and (in my view) unprofessional and I wish they would just leave it at the door when they come in to work. Am I jealous of their relationship? Sure. I want my manager to enjoy my company and think I'm a great employee, but I don't want to be her best friend. Nor do I want to watch as her and a peer of mine giggle and titter about "the funniest thing that happened during so and so's softball game", etc. I've just never worked anywhere where a manager was like this. Going back to my original post: What happened to "professional distance?" I understand that "managers are people too" and that yes, occasionally your friends that are peers are promoted, or you've know someone for 20 years, etc. BUT in this case neither the latter nor former is true. So. I don't think I'm being irrational because this bothers me. Nor do I think the other people in my department at my peer level are being irrational. I like the suggestion someone gave to give the manager a "heads up" that it is causing a potential morale problem in the department. I think I will mull over what to say in my head and then maybe meet with the manager next week about it. I'll let you guys know how it goes. Thanks again. PS for those of you wanting to "move on already"--you don't have to read every subject or every post...so why don't YOU move on?
I'm a non-management-subordinate in my department. If my boss was acting that way I would be uncomfortable.
I went through the posts and I think it's interesting how franfield's posts have changed down the line. IMHO I think saying "just get over it!" isn't very helpful. Terminate obviously is having a problem here that is affecting his work (his/her? sorry but I don't know which).
I'm not saying take every problem or concern and drip honey all over it to make it better. One person's sliver is another person's 2x4. I just think this person has a valid work related issue. Saying "get over it!" doesn't really help much.
It's interesting how this discussion has played out. Going through the posts I fell into the "get over it" side of the debate because of the context of the initial post. There was not clear indication of what kind, if any, problem the invitations to private parties was causing with the rest of the department employees.
However, at the end where Terminate clarified the fact that the manager and subordinate "flaunted" the outside relationship in front of all the other employees, I can see where it can cause a serious morale problem. I commend Tereminate for taking in all of the views presented and seeing how it truely fits into the situation. I wish you luck as you approach this delicate discussion with your manager.
I think this topic presents an interesting learning experience in how we use this board. I believe it is important to present all of the facts and the impact those facts have on the situation you present. Think the nature of the responses had been quite different had that been done.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 09-18-02 AT 11:54AM (CST)[/font][p]Sigh.... Terminate, your profile has been disabled. Therefore, I can only guess. There are going to be times when someone will say or do something that does not sit well with you. This is one of those times. My post was not meant to bring out the "meow" but to indicate that the horse was already dead and it was time to stop beating on it. Got it?
>Sigh.... Terminate, your profile has been disabled. Therefore, I can >only guess.
Guess what?
There are going to be times when someone will say or do >something that does not sit well with you. This is one of those >times. My post was not meant to bring out the "meow" but to indicate >that the horse was already dead and it was time to stop beating on it. > Got it?
If you're not interested in the conversation why are you following the thread and posting? And yes, I do "get" that people will say things that don't settle well with me and that this is one of those times. Why so condescending?
At the same time, we should all understand that even writers who might scream 'move on' have a perfect right to express that. I said, "don't get a wedgie over it", early on. So that, I suppose might have been seen as a milder form of 'move on'. I can't evaluate the thoughts or mindset of any of you, but I can read what you post and try to weigh it against the original problem that was posted. Whether I say 'move on' or 'lets really explore this terribly important issue' is really just another way of clicking on the rating numbers at the bottom of the post (1-10). I want Fran and Ritaanz to feel free to say 'Move on for God's sake'. I also want the person with the issue to feel free to lay it out for our review and insist on our understanding. We should feel free to scream at each other in a civil fashion and we also should feel free to chastise each other if that's what our gut is. It's takes all of us to make it fun and a learning experience. And for the 'visitors' logging on who don't have 200 bucks to spend to join up, take up a collection and come on in. You know what a diplomat I can be, huh?
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 09-18-02 AT 10:09AM (CST)[/font][p]Boy, I feel like Catbert, the evil HR Director or, worse yet, my own evil twin x}> I will post one more time to this thread, then quit. I promise.
Don't discussions on plans outside the office take place all the time between peers? Are you sure the manager is "flaunting" it? Why would they do that? What is to be gained? Is it possible the subordinate is the one flaunting it and the manager is the one taking the hit? Can the manager not have a social life?
The point I wanted to make is that, unless the superior's actions affect assignments, promotions, salaries, etc., the individuals and groups taking the time to discuss it and get themselves upset over it are only hurting themselves and, depending on when they have these discussions, affecting the company's productivity.
Seems to me there is a lot more to your negative feelings about this manager than with whom they socialize. You might want to try to figure out what it is about the manager and your working relationship that bothers you.
>Don't discussions on plans outside the office take place all the time >between peers? Are you sure the manager is "flaunting" it? Why would >they do that? What is to be gained? Is it possible the subordinate is >the one flaunting it and the manager is the one taking the hit? Can >the manager not have a social life?
To answer your first question, yes these conversations take place all the time between peers. The issue is the conversations are conducted at l e n g t h between a manager and a subordinate IN FRONT OF other subordinates on a CONSISTANT basis. What is to be gained? I have no idea. I wish I knew. Is it possible that the subordinate is "flaunting" it? Sure, but the ultimate responsibility (in my opinion) lies in the manager's hands. She is in charge and she should know better. If she just isn't seeing it, well then I am even more uncomfortable with her abilities as a leader. Is she allowed to have a social life? YES, of course! If she wants to be close to this subordinate and hang out with her that's fine (although I personally think it's a poor choice in regards to her management position). All I'm saying is why does she have to go on and on and on about it in front of all of the other subordinates?
>The point I wanted to make is that, unless the superior's actions >affect assignments, promotions, salaries, etc., the individuals and >groups taking the time to discuss it and get themselves upset over it >are only hurting themselves and, depending on when they have these >discussions, affecting the company's productivity.
This is exactly my point, albeit I'm refering to the fact that it is the manager "taking the time" and "depending on when they have these discussions, affecting the company's productivity"--like I've said before the manager is the one who is chatting AT US about her activities with the subordinate. How can we be to blame when we react as we have (mentioning amongst ourselves that it is annoying and decreases morale)?
>Seems to me there is a lot more to your negative feelings about this >manager than with whom they socialize. You might want to try to figure >out what it is about the manager and your working relationship that >bothers you.
I do not have negative feelings toward her due to WHO she socializes with. I have said it before: I think it's a poor choice for a manager to socialize with a subordinate BUT the issue is not that in itself. The issue IS that she relays, in detail, her outings with the subordinate TO the other subordinates in the department. AND seems to go to great lengths to do so (why???). THIS is "what it is about the manager and your (my) working relationship that bothers you (me)".
If you will post her name, title and address, I will write her a formal letter advising her of her inappropriate activity and we can close the matter. x:-)
Fran, I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that a manager can't socialize with subordinates. What Terminate is feeling (no matter who thinks it's right or wrong) is valid because she's feeling it. People will agree, and people will disagree. However, for those who disagree, I hope that down the road you won't have a "disparate treatment" or "discrimination" claim filed against your managers who do socialize and MAKE IT KNOWN.
Terminate, I think that you have a very hard decision to make, but since what you are feeling is making you and your coworkers uncomfortable, you have an obligation to say something to your manager's manager (Or HR if you're not in HR) about how these actions are being perceived and leave it at that. It will be out of your hands at that point in time. Hopefully you can trust that it will be taken care of. If it isn't, you have to either live with it, try to join in or leave the company.
Good luck and please let us know what has happend.
I too have revised my stance after you clarified the nature of the relationship between your manager and one of your peers as well as the apparent "flaunting" that goes on between them.
You sound like you have a level head and are trying to think this out clearly. My advice to you would be to take the high road and just ignore their relationship like you would ignore any other workplace irritant.
Why? Because if your manager is so immature that he or she can't recognize how innappropriate or potentially problematic this relationship is, I doubt he or she will respond well to you brining up the matter. There is some possibility for backlash against you. Plus, your peers who may agree with you now might scatter once you take a stand leaving you alone in the spotlight.
Its too bad... I feel for you. That sounds very uncomfortable but I think you are best off just focusing on your job and doing it to the best of your ability.
Also, I take issue with some of the impatient comments that have been posted in this thread. If your bored with the discussion, you don't have to read it. But if others want to explore it more fully, that's fine. Yeah, you have the right to say "lets move on" but its unneccessary and somewhat in opposition to all that this forum is about.
>Also, I take issue with some of the impatient comments that have been >posted in this thread. If your bored with the discussion, you don't >have to read it. But if others want to explore it more fully, that's >fine. Yeah, you have the right to say "lets move on" but its >unneccessary and somewhat in opposition to all that this forum is about.
Comments
On the other hand, I do have to agree with Don that people are streching things a bit--which is of course very natural. You look at a situation, picture yourself in it, maybe even add some of your experiences in life like it TO IT. Simply put: My manager singles out one out of 8 of us to socialize outside of work with. She does not keep this fact discrete, NOR out of the workplace. They frequently chit chat in front of others about their relationship and the things they do together (ie: manager said to subordinate last week "If you get to the restaurant before me go ahead and order for me, YOU know what I like"). It's irritating and (in my view) unprofessional and I wish they would just leave it at the door when they come in to work. Am I jealous of their relationship? Sure. I want my manager to enjoy my company and think I'm a great employee, but I don't want to be her best friend. Nor do I want to watch as her and a peer of mine giggle and titter about "the funniest thing that happened during so and so's softball game", etc. I've just never worked anywhere where a manager was like this. Going back to my original post: What happened to "professional distance?" I understand that "managers are people too" and that yes, occasionally your friends that are peers are promoted, or you've know someone for 20 years, etc. BUT in this case neither the latter nor former is true. So. I don't think I'm being irrational because this bothers me. Nor do I think the other people in my department at my peer level are being irrational. I like the suggestion someone gave to give the manager a "heads up" that it is causing a potential morale problem in the department. I think I will mull over what to say in my head and then maybe meet with the manager next week about it. I'll let you guys know how it goes. Thanks again.
PS for those of you wanting to "move on already"--you don't have to read every subject or every post...so why don't YOU move on?
I went through the posts and I think it's interesting how franfield's posts have changed down the line. IMHO I think saying "just get over it!" isn't very helpful. Terminate obviously is having a problem here that is affecting his work (his/her? sorry but I don't know which).
I'm not saying take every problem or concern and drip honey all over it to make it better. One person's sliver is another person's 2x4. I just think this person has a valid work related issue. Saying "get over it!" doesn't really help much.
However, at the end where Terminate clarified the fact that the manager and subordinate "flaunted" the outside relationship in front of all the other employees, I can see where it can cause a serious morale problem. I commend Tereminate for taking in all of the views presented and seeing how it truely fits into the situation. I wish you luck as you approach this delicate discussion with your manager.
I think this topic presents an interesting learning experience in how we use this board. I believe it is important to present all of the facts and the impact those facts have on the situation you present. Think the nature of the responses had been quite different had that been done.
>only guess.
Guess what?
There are going to be times when someone will say or do
>something that does not sit well with you. This is one of those
>times. My post was not meant to bring out the "meow" but to indicate
>that the horse was already dead and it was time to stop beating on it.
> Got it?
If you're not interested in the conversation why are you following the thread and posting? And yes, I do "get" that people will say things that don't settle well with me and that this is one of those times. Why so condescending?
Don't discussions on plans outside the office take place all the time between peers? Are you sure the manager is "flaunting" it? Why would they do that? What is to be gained? Is it possible the subordinate is the one flaunting it and the manager is the one taking the hit? Can the manager not have a social life?
The point I wanted to make is that, unless the superior's actions affect assignments, promotions, salaries, etc., the individuals and groups taking the time to discuss it and get themselves upset over it are only hurting themselves and, depending on when they have these discussions, affecting the company's productivity.
Seems to me there is a lot more to your negative feelings about this manager than with whom they socialize. You might want to try to figure out what it is about the manager and your working relationship that bothers you.
>between peers? Are you sure the manager is "flaunting" it? Why would
>they do that? What is to be gained? Is it possible the subordinate is
>the one flaunting it and the manager is the one taking the hit? Can
>the manager not have a social life?
To answer your first question, yes these conversations take place all the time between peers. The issue is the conversations are conducted at l e n g t h between a manager and a subordinate IN FRONT OF other subordinates on a CONSISTANT basis. What is to be gained? I have no idea. I wish I knew. Is it possible that the subordinate is "flaunting" it? Sure, but the ultimate responsibility (in my opinion) lies in the manager's hands. She is in charge and she should know better. If she just isn't seeing it, well then I am even more uncomfortable with her abilities as a leader.
Is she allowed to have a social life? YES, of course! If she wants to be close to this subordinate and hang out with her that's fine (although I personally think it's a poor choice in regards to her management position). All I'm saying is why does she have to go on and on and on about it in front of all of the other subordinates?
>The point I wanted to make is that, unless the superior's actions
>affect assignments, promotions, salaries, etc., the individuals and
>groups taking the time to discuss it and get themselves upset over it
>are only hurting themselves and, depending on when they have these
>discussions, affecting the company's productivity.
This is exactly my point, albeit I'm refering to the fact that it is the manager "taking the time" and "depending on when they have these discussions, affecting the company's productivity"--like I've said before the manager is the one who is chatting AT US about her activities with the subordinate. How can we be to blame when we react as we have (mentioning amongst ourselves that it is annoying and decreases morale)?
>Seems to me there is a lot more to your negative feelings about this
>manager than with whom they socialize. You might want to try to figure
>out what it is about the manager and your working relationship that
>bothers you.
I do not have negative feelings toward her due to WHO she socializes with. I have said it before: I think it's a poor choice for a manager to socialize with a subordinate BUT the issue is not that in itself. The issue IS that she relays, in detail, her outings with the subordinate TO the other subordinates in the department. AND seems to go to great lengths to do so (why???). THIS is "what it is about the manager and your (my) working relationship that bothers you (me)".
>
Fran, I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that a manager can't socialize with subordinates. What Terminate is feeling (no matter who thinks it's right or wrong) is valid because she's feeling it. People will agree, and people will disagree. However, for those who disagree, I hope that down the road you won't have a "disparate treatment" or "discrimination" claim filed against your managers who do socialize and MAKE IT KNOWN.
Terminate, I think that you have a very hard decision to make, but since what you are feeling is making you and your coworkers uncomfortable, you have an obligation to say something to your manager's manager (Or HR if you're not in HR) about how these actions are being perceived and leave it at that. It will be out of your hands at that point in time. Hopefully you can trust that it will be taken care of. If it isn't, you have to either live with it, try to join in or leave the company.
Good luck and please let us know what has happend.
I too have revised my stance after you clarified the nature of the relationship between your manager and one of your peers as well as the apparent "flaunting" that goes on between them.
You sound like you have a level head and are trying to think this out clearly. My advice to you would be to take the high road and just ignore their relationship like you would ignore any other workplace irritant.
Why? Because if your manager is so immature that he or she can't recognize how innappropriate or potentially problematic this relationship is, I doubt he or she will respond well to you brining up the matter. There is some possibility for backlash against you. Plus, your peers who may agree with you now might scatter once you take a stand leaving you alone in the spotlight.
Its too bad... I feel for you. That sounds very uncomfortable but I think you are best off just focusing on your job and doing it to the best of your ability.
Also, I take issue with some of the impatient comments that have been posted in this thread. If your bored with the discussion, you don't have to read it. But if others want to explore it more fully, that's fine. Yeah, you have the right to say "lets move on" but its unneccessary and somewhat in opposition to all that this forum is about.
[email]paulknoch@hotmail.com[/email]
>posted in this thread. If your bored with the discussion, you don't
>have to read it. But if others want to explore it more fully, that's
>fine. Yeah, you have the right to say "lets move on" but its
>unneccessary and somewhat in opposition to all that this forum is about.
AMEN Paul!!