I CONCURR, amazingly enough there is not one post on my UP-DATE, but a few viewers, this thread has a lot of entertaining, stuff. However, the original post of TN HR is extremely important for all to read, because when the physical program goes "nation wide" for all to use, TN HR will be the first to say "you guys should have listened to back in May 2005 and gotten on board to sink the flawed ship before it righted itself and now you are stuck with it"!!!!!! The on-line verification is coming sooner than you would want to believe. It is here now for all to use and to help correct the things that may be wrong.
As an up-date to the other thread, we have not heard from our referred employee. His first paycheck went out yesterday, and he will have a small one next week, we hope he will get the errors in the flawed DHS data bank corrected so that he can rejoin the work force.
Ok, I feel dense x:-8 but I don't know what an I-9 verification is. We do verify authorization to work in US by obtaining the appropriate documents and completing and storing the I-9, but I haven't ever gone beyond this. However, I've also never hired any foreign aliens (is that the right term?) or non US citizens, so perhaps that's why?x:-/
"However, the original post of TN HR is extremely important for all to read, because when the physical program goes "nation wide" for all to use, TN HR will be the first to say "you guys should have listened to back in May 2005 and gotten on board to sink the flawed ship before it righted itself and now you are stuck with it"!!!!!! The on-line verification is coming sooner than you would want to believe"
Don't bet on it. I guarantee you this thing will never go full throttle. Do you think my 30 minute exercise is the first time a flaw has been detected or suspected? C'mon!
The National Driver's License program will go live before this thing does. Besides, did you not read your MOU? This thing only has funding until 2008, after that it will probably go the way of the hubble telescope. The only thing your MOU will be good for is kindling for Don's chimenea.
TN HR: Need I to remind you that there is a greater need for the I-9 verification beyond our little HR "world of work". Maybe up there in the Hills of TN, you did not here that there is a "War on Terrorism on-going". Did you not read or listen to the news to know that our Southern Border is a prime entrant point for any terrorist? Are you not aware that a simple "dirty weapon" could be carried across the border on the back of a young person? Are you not aware that the checking of Work permits and proper identification of individuals is very important to you and Me?
National drivers license will be another picture ID acceptable and verifiable by the I-9 verification, are you not aware of all of this? I for one hope the National Drivers license does come on then the states will be checking and using the I-9 verification just like you and me.
"Maybe up there in the Hills of TN, you did not here that there is a "War on Terrorism on-going". "
Well, galldarn, ev'r since we done moved into the big city of Nashville and left the hills, not only did we stop trying to procreate with barnyard animals but we also got tv's.
You reckon that if we can't stop airliners from slamming into buildings and, most recently, student pilots from entering restricted airspace, we can stop an illegal crossing into AZ with a suitcase nuke?
AJ SPHR: Go to the bottom of this long list of topics (for this month) and you will find the original post and threads which will provide all of the back ground.
You now have the capability to validate the I-9 information provided by all newly enrolled employees, regardless of the national origin of the new hire.
I have for several years now, been the test employer for the State of Mississippi with the on-line verification of the SSN associated with the I-9. Once we got on line with the SSA and started to "TAKING BACK"" newly offered jobs to anyone WITH MIS-MATCHED INFORMATION, until the errors were corrected, the word got out that we verify the SSn information. We were able to identify the data base errors of the SSN, NAME SPELLING, DOB, AND GENDER. We refered all applicants with mis-matched information to SSA for correction. The US Citizens would be mad, but they would go to SSA and within days/hours return with the information corrected. The foreign nationals would go away and not come back and if they did sometimes they would have a new SSN, we would check the information and send them back again. Before long foreign nationals did not come to apply for jobs, they knew we verified the data of the I-9.
This year they have begun to return again and the SSA data has been checking out, as ok. I had supected for some time that if SSA can produce a on-line verification then why should the old INS do the same thing for the "Work Permit" documents.
Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has done it and it is now on-line for private and government employers to sign up as a voluntary action during this test period.
For your purposes, not having to face the I-9 issues from the perspective of not hiring other than US Citizens, there are less positives for you in this project. However, the IRS does like to have the proper information relating to your US Citizens correct as well. This new program will allow your initial input of new employee information to be validated very quickly.
There you go again, Pork, spreading your one-sided diatribe. You continue to go on and on and on about the SSA system (flawed) the SAVE I-9 PILOT (really flawed) and you continue to spread the word about how great it is, yet you fail to omit my findings. I will fight you mano a mano on this one.
TO ANYONE READING THIS: THE I-9 SAVE PILOT HERALDED BY PORK AS THE ONE-STOP SOLUTION TO TERRORISM, BAD HIRES, THE ECONOMY, THE PRICE OF EGGS IN CHINA, CANCER, WHOOPING COUGH AND WORLD PEACE, IS FLAWED!
The system is unreliable, cumbersome and, quite frankly, not easy to use or administer.
You are having such a terrible time with this computer program! I guess you can't even get to the termination page of the program.
I, a neophyte with the computer, have had a slight difficulty with the movement between pages in the system to get a legal verification and a documented trail, which will defend my actions for: number # (1) sending an employee to the DHS to help the employee correct his personal identification located in our government's data bank. (2)to help the USA government, as represented by the DHS, to fix the soft-waqre program where there may be confusion. The slight difficulty has always been resolved with the project staff at the above help number.
The only error in the SSA system was the lack of coordinated information between the SSA data bank and the USCIS data bank. That issue has been resolved by the introduction of the SAVE PROGRAM administered by the DHS.
You could not have even tested the SSA system because it has not gone beyond the test phase. Therefore, your declaration that it is flawed speaks well for your position. It is ready and could go live soon. This program will be an immediate verification of the SSA data pertaining to the SSN of all employers/employees. This one, however, allowed this company to go back and validate the data for all employees and to get the errors corrected, which included for a few of our employees the changing of name spelling, birthday, gender, and the typographical errors associated with the SSC.
And lastly "fighting me on this one is a waste of your time, but it is entertaining and to some a chance to learn something of value". Fighting me on this private HR line is a good place for you to post your thoughts, however, I am not the one to be fighting, it is my big brother DHS, that will swoop down upon your ARSH and chew it up, you will be STANDING ALONE FOR ALL TO SEE.
May you and the rest of our HR FORUM MEMBERS have a Blessed day.
>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE! > >Attention FORUM: > >After careful consideration I decided to give >this SAVE PILOT program a try. Originally I >said I would not unless it became mandatory. >Well, thanks to the wise guidance from PORK1 who >was kind enough to guide me, OVER THE PHONE, on >how to proceed, I was able to get everything >done, MOU signature page faxed, tutorial taken, >MASTERY ACHIEVED! > >Now, it is with great disappointment that I >report to the Forum that the system is flawed, >does not pass muster and I doubt that I will >continue to use it. Allow me to tell you why: > >-Too much data entry. Potential for a lot of >time-consuming "resolution" and "CASE CLOSED" >steps should you not get an immediate >"EMPLOYMENT AUTHORIZED". > >Most importantly, however, I conducted my own >test using the information of a known >undocumented employee whom I had to terminate >upon finding out he was using an assumed >identity. > >Here are the results of my test: > >Known facts: > >-Employee used the name, gender, DOB and SSN of >a US citizen. > >-He got a false I-551 (great fake with holograms >and all that jazz), with the above info, HIS >picture and with a bogus, randomly made-up A#. > >Steps taken: > >-I entered the individual into the SAVE system. > >Results: > >-EMPLOYMENT AUTHORIZED. > >Nice try, US GOVERNMENT, but it's back to the >drawing board. I will cancel my participation >in the PILOT SAVE YOUR TIME program. > >Gene
I must come to Pork's defense on this matter. This is my first interaction with the Forum. I have been using the Pilot program since January and find it great. There have been several new hires who have tried to present false IDs. After explaining to them they must contact SS to get the matter cleared up, they sign the paperwork contesting and go on their merry way. A few I never see again and others are able to reslove the matter and become employees.
The only part that I do not like about the program is that I am not contacted by INS to get a local address on individuals who are using false IDs.
TN HR: I know now where you made your mistakes in posting your "declared illegal aliens" which gave you a false authorization to employ.
The verification process for a foreign national requires you to apply the data on the I-9 form for the "work permit card" or other document. Therefore, you had to have posted the individuals as a US Citizen verses a foreign national. The system will not allow you to proceed to the submission phase without identifying the documents used to validate the right to work in our country.
I wrote in previous postings and admitted that the foreign nationals had all of a sudden started to coming back for application and hiring. We submitted the SSN information and they came back as valid, and we proceeded onto the enrollment process, their Work permits looked good and the SSN was validated so I had my authorization to employ.
I would love to go back now and re-verify my foreign nationals employees that just came on-board this year. IAW my "MOU with DHS" it is such that I will not seek out information, for which I am not entitled.
My Hispanic interpreter has already begun to spread the word that we not only check SSNs, we also check the work permit.
Forum Members this is for reading and up-date, I will definately comeback on for your information when I have a new employee to validate or next week, when I close a case. I have not done that as yet. My fears of exercising this system is once again deminished, it is easy once you get on-board and do a couple. The staff on this project are very friendly and helpful.
GO USA AND SSA/DHS, they have had a very Blessed program going all along, I just was not a previous participant.
TN HR: I am just trying to help you get past your "log jam" and "belief that the system is flawed". I have called the help desk to find out what you might have done. I used your words as my example; they assured me, I could not even use the system if I followed the prompts and took the information from the I-9, which is where "we (HRs everywhere)record the information and verify the documents presented. The staffer informed me the only way to get a foreign national authorization to employ without referrals, is if both the Work Permit and the SSN were presented in the process and all were valid.
If you put the information in and only required documents from list b, c. for a foreign national, then you set of possible situations could have come back, as stated, but then you should not have accepted the NC driver's license as proof of the right to work in our country. I was also presented with a NC driver's license for one of our previous foreign nationals. I did not accept it as proof of right to work for he could not speak English nor understand the written English words. He findly understood me and presented a work permit which I accepted and recorded the information contained there on.
Again TN HR I did not come to fight, but I certainly hate to let a fellow HR professional get backed into a corner which you painted yourself.
If the system is flawed then help us fix it so that the greater mission for all HRs every where can be enhanced. AS I STATED I AM NOT THE PERSON TO BE FIGHTING, CONTACT THE HELP LINE OR GET OFF OF THIS THREAD WITH YOUR CLAIMS OF FLAWED.
First there was one (1) Ole' PORK and now there are two (2) Ginny, who has much more history than I with this program. Soon there will be many and you will be dragging your heals not wanting to admit that you were wrong, OR NOT WILLING TO HELP FIX WHATEVER YOU FEEL IS FLAWED.....
Pork, I am not interested in taking part in a pilot for a flawed system. Simple as that. The system, even before the pilot stage, should have been advanced enough so that a simple SSN and I-551 check where the only valid information entered was the name and SSN should never return a "employment authorized". I have tried, literally, a dozen or so different iterations of the test. In one, I used MY information plus a made-up I-551 with A# 123456789 and WHAMMO!
Please, enough already! Stop trying to convince me that the system works! Do us all a favor and simply let people continue with the current practice until this becomes mandatory.
I only have three words for you: YOU'VE BEEN CHALLENGED!
See the Hrharhar(sp?) thread for my open challenge to you. Will you step-up to the plate? Will you finally put your money where your mouth is? Are you willing to stop writing checks that your a** can't cash?
There is no need to fly me to TN to show me the information. It is flawed! It is flawed and not from the data bank submissions but from the original submission of data that was supposed to be verified by someone in your company as being valid from list a and list c and not "list b,c."
I did not come to fight, as you put it, and to fight to the end, your end is near. You can not back up your claim for flawed and you don't seem to be interested and to contact the help desk of the SAVE program to help our government clean up a flawed soft ware system designed to help we HRs every where.
May you have a nice week-end and a better nest week.
You are, once again, showing your inability to understand and grasp basic concepts. It doesn't matter what documents, etc you verify. The system REQUIRES you to enter the information I am speaking of in my examples. It returns an EMPLOYMENT AUTHORIZED with a bogus A#. How good is the system?
TN HR: Fax me a copy of your employment authorization page of the program, that you base your allegations of flawed upon. 1-662-493-0873 is my FAX number.
The system does not respond to the A # number, if you list the basic documents from list B,C of the I-9. There is no checking of the "work permit", if you only give the list b,c documents; it checks the SSN data only, because you are dealing with a US Citizen and it will give you an authorization to employ. I admitted early on that the SSN verification had apparantly been compromized for we since Jan 2005 have hired three foreign nationals and their SSN information was verified. We did not have the SAVE sytem at that time. Since getting the SAVE program we have successfully verified the I-9 information with ease and not a "nightmare" at all.
I now have my 3 out of 3 verifications: 1 foreign national with "most likely bad work permit" and 2 US Citizens. Once into the system, to which I am getting faster, the authoriztion to employ is in my hands and into our I-9 files within a matter of seconds.......
I am not finding anything flawed, but I sure would like to know the specific information you used to get an employment authorized on a know illegal alien, which was your declaration.
For the purposes of this post/thread, I am going to drop it form my view, why don't you e-mail and fax me the information off line and let the rest of the world of HRs go on to more important issues and post.
Pork, you're still not listening. You've completely missed the mark on this. It doesn't matter what dat a is checked first. If the system does what is continues to do then it is no better than what we currently have in place. As long as people continue to assume the identity of someone else, and then get an I551 made, how do you prevent yourself from hiring all illegals? Answer that! If the system was worth a crap it would send back some sort of message like:
"SSN on file belongs to US Citizen-Refer To DHS"
Face it, it is useless!
Besides, you keep weasling out of the challenge! Face the music Pork. The challenge has been made!
Are you going to be a man of conviction and face adversity or tuck your tail and run?
Comments
As an up-date to the other thread, we have not heard from our referred employee. His first paycheck went out yesterday, and he will have a small one next week, we hope he will get the errors in the flawed DHS data bank corrected so that he can rejoin the work force.
PORK
"However, the original post of TN HR is extremely important for all to read, because when the physical program goes "nation wide" for all to use, TN HR will be the first to say "you guys should have listened to back in May 2005 and gotten on board to sink the flawed ship before it righted itself and now you are stuck with it"!!!!!! The on-line verification is coming sooner than you would want to believe"
Don't bet on it. I guarantee you this thing will never go full throttle. Do you think my 30 minute exercise is the first time a flaw has been detected or suspected? C'mon!
The National Driver's License program will go live before this thing does. Besides, did you not read your MOU? This thing only has funding until 2008, after that it will probably go the way of the hubble telescope. The only thing your MOU will be good for is kindling for Don's chimenea.
Gene
National drivers license will be another picture ID acceptable and verifiable by the I-9 verification, are you not aware of all of this? I for one hope the National Drivers license does come on then the states will be checking and using the I-9 verification just like you and me.
PORK
Well, galldarn, ev'r since we done moved into the big city of Nashville and left the hills, not only did we stop trying to procreate with barnyard animals but we also got tv's.
You reckon that if we can't stop airliners from slamming into buildings and, most recently, student pilots from entering restricted airspace, we can stop an illegal crossing into AZ with a suitcase nuke?
You now have the capability to validate the I-9 information provided by all newly enrolled employees, regardless of the national origin of the new hire.
I have for several years now, been the test employer for the State of Mississippi with the on-line verification of the SSN associated with the I-9. Once we got on line with the SSA and started to "TAKING BACK"" newly offered jobs to anyone WITH MIS-MATCHED INFORMATION, until the errors were corrected, the word got out that we verify the SSn information. We were able to identify the data base errors of the SSN, NAME SPELLING, DOB, AND GENDER. We refered all applicants with mis-matched information to SSA for correction. The US Citizens would be mad, but they would go to SSA and within days/hours return with the information corrected. The foreign nationals would go away and not come back and if they did sometimes they would have a new SSN, we would check the information and send them back again. Before long foreign nationals did not come to apply for jobs, they knew we verified the data of the I-9.
This year they have begun to return again and the SSA data has been checking out, as ok. I had supected for some time that if SSA can produce a on-line verification then why should the old INS do the same thing for the "Work Permit" documents.
Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has done it and it is now on-line for private and government employers to sign up as a voluntary action during this test period.
For your purposes, not having to face the I-9 issues from the perspective of not hiring other than US Citizens, there are less positives for you in this project. However, the IRS does like to have the proper information relating to your US Citizens correct as well. This new program will allow your initial input of new employee information to be validated very quickly.
PORK
TO ANYONE READING THIS: THE I-9 SAVE PILOT HERALDED BY PORK AS THE ONE-STOP SOLUTION TO TERRORISM, BAD HIRES, THE ECONOMY, THE PRICE OF EGGS IN CHINA, CANCER, WHOOPING COUGH AND WORLD PEACE, IS FLAWED!
The system is unreliable, cumbersome and, quite frankly, not easy to use or administer.
You are having such a terrible time with this computer program! I guess you can't even get to the termination page of the program.
I, a neophyte with the computer, have had a slight difficulty with the movement between pages in the system to get a legal verification and a documented trail, which will defend my actions for: number # (1) sending an employee to the DHS to help the employee correct his personal identification located in our government's data bank. (2)to help the USA government, as represented by the DHS, to fix the soft-waqre program where there may be confusion. The slight difficulty has always been resolved with the project staff at the above help number.
The only error in the SSA system was the lack of coordinated information between the SSA data bank and the USCIS data bank. That issue has been resolved by the introduction of the SAVE PROGRAM administered by the DHS.
You could not have even tested the SSA system because it has not gone beyond the test phase. Therefore, your declaration that it is flawed speaks well for your position. It is ready and could go live soon. This program will be an immediate verification of the SSA data pertaining to the SSN of all employers/employees. This one, however, allowed this company to go back and validate the data for all employees and to get the errors corrected, which included for a few of our employees the changing of name spelling, birthday, gender, and the typographical errors associated with the SSC.
And lastly "fighting me on this one is a waste of your time, but it is entertaining and to some a chance to learn something of value". Fighting me on this private HR line is a good place for you to post your thoughts, however, I am not the one to be fighting, it is my big brother DHS, that will swoop down upon your ARSH and chew it up, you will be STANDING ALONE FOR ALL TO SEE.
May you and the rest of our HR FORUM MEMBERS have a Blessed day.
PORK
>
>Attention FORUM:
>
>After careful consideration I decided to give
>this SAVE PILOT program a try. Originally I
>said I would not unless it became mandatory.
>Well, thanks to the wise guidance from PORK1 who
>was kind enough to guide me, OVER THE PHONE, on
>how to proceed, I was able to get everything
>done, MOU signature page faxed, tutorial taken,
>MASTERY ACHIEVED!
>
>Now, it is with great disappointment that I
>report to the Forum that the system is flawed,
>does not pass muster and I doubt that I will
>continue to use it. Allow me to tell you why:
>
>-Too much data entry. Potential for a lot of
>time-consuming "resolution" and "CASE CLOSED"
>steps should you not get an immediate
>"EMPLOYMENT AUTHORIZED".
>
>Most importantly, however, I conducted my own
>test using the information of a known
>undocumented employee whom I had to terminate
>upon finding out he was using an assumed
>identity.
>
>Here are the results of my test:
>
>Known facts:
>
>-Employee used the name, gender, DOB and SSN of
>a US citizen.
>
>-He got a false I-551 (great fake with holograms
>and all that jazz), with the above info, HIS
>picture and with a bogus, randomly made-up A#.
>
>Steps taken:
>
>-I entered the individual into the SAVE system.
>
>Results:
>
>-EMPLOYMENT AUTHORIZED.
>
>Nice try, US GOVERNMENT, but it's back to the
>drawing board. I will cancel my participation
>in the PILOT SAVE YOUR TIME program.
>
>Gene
The only part that I do not like about the program is that I am not contacted by INS to get a local address on individuals who are using false IDs.
Ginny
The verification process for a foreign national requires you to apply the data on the I-9 form for the "work permit card" or other document. Therefore, you had to have posted the individuals as a US Citizen verses a foreign national. The system will not allow you to proceed to the submission phase without identifying the documents used to validate the right to work in our country.
I wrote in previous postings and admitted that the foreign nationals had all of a sudden started to coming back for application and hiring. We submitted the SSN information and they came back as valid, and we proceeded onto the enrollment process, their Work permits looked good and the SSN was validated so I had my authorization to employ.
I would love to go back now and re-verify my foreign nationals employees that just came on-board this year. IAW my "MOU with DHS" it is such that I will not seek out information, for which I am not entitled.
My Hispanic interpreter has already begun to spread the word that we not only check SSNs, we also check the work permit.
Forum Members this is for reading and up-date, I will definately comeback on for your information when I have a new employee to validate or next week, when I close a case. I have not done that as yet. My fears of exercising this system is once again deminished, it is easy once you get on-board and do a couple. The staff on this project are very friendly and helpful.
GO USA AND SSA/DHS, they have had a very Blessed program going all along, I just was not a previous participant.
PORK
Send me your information and I wil fly you to TN to prove to you in person that the system is flawed.
Gene
If you put the information in and only required documents from list b, c. for a foreign national, then you set of possible situations could have come back, as stated, but then you should not have accepted the NC driver's license as proof of the right to work in our country. I was also presented with a NC driver's license for one of our previous foreign nationals. I did not accept it as proof of right to work for he could not speak English nor understand the written English words. He findly understood me and presented a work permit which I accepted and recorded the information contained there on.
Again TN HR I did not come to fight, but I certainly hate to let a fellow HR professional get backed into a corner which you painted yourself.
If the system is flawed then help us fix it so that the greater mission for all HRs every where can be enhanced. AS I STATED I AM NOT THE PERSON TO BE FIGHTING, CONTACT THE HELP LINE OR GET OFF OF THIS THREAD WITH YOUR CLAIMS OF FLAWED.
First there was one (1) Ole' PORK and now there are two (2) Ginny, who has much more history than I with this program. Soon there will be many and you will be dragging your heals not wanting to admit that you were wrong, OR NOT WILLING TO HELP FIX WHATEVER YOU FEEL IS FLAWED.....
PORK
Please, enough already! Stop trying to convince me that the system works! Do us all a favor and simply let people continue with the current practice until this becomes mandatory.
Gene
I only have three words for you: YOU'VE BEEN CHALLENGED!
See the Hrharhar(sp?) thread for my open challenge to you. Will you step-up to the plate? Will you finally put your money where your mouth is? Are you willing to stop writing checks that your a** can't cash?
Time will tell.
I did not come to fight, as you put it, and to fight to the end, your end is near. You can not back up your claim for flawed and you don't seem to be interested and to contact the help desk of the SAVE program to help our government clean up a flawed soft ware system designed to help we HRs every where.
May you have a nice week-end and a better nest week.
PORK
You are, once again, showing your inability to understand and grasp basic concepts. It doesn't matter what documents, etc you verify. The system REQUIRES you to enter the information I am speaking of in my examples. It returns an EMPLOYMENT AUTHORIZED with a bogus A#. How good is the system?
Besides, have you accepted the CHALLENGE yet?
The system does not respond to the A # number, if you list the basic documents from list B,C of the I-9. There is no checking of the "work permit", if you only give the list b,c documents; it checks the SSN data only, because you are dealing with a US Citizen and it will give you an authorization to employ. I admitted early on that the SSN verification had apparantly been compromized for we since Jan 2005 have hired three foreign nationals and their SSN information was verified. We did not have the SAVE sytem at that time. Since getting the SAVE program we have successfully verified the I-9 information with ease and not a "nightmare" at all.
I now have my 3 out of 3 verifications: 1 foreign national with "most likely bad work permit" and 2 US Citizens. Once into the system, to which I am getting faster, the authoriztion to employ is in my hands and into our I-9 files within a matter of seconds.......
I am not finding anything flawed, but I sure would like to know the specific information you used to get an employment authorized on a know illegal alien, which was your declaration.
For the purposes of this post/thread, I am going to drop it form my view, why don't you e-mail and fax me the information off line and let the rest of the world of HRs go on to more important issues and post.
PORK
"SSN on file belongs to US Citizen-Refer To DHS"
Face it, it is useless!
Besides, you keep weasling out of the challenge! Face the music Pork. The challenge has been made!
Are you going to be a man of conviction and face adversity or tuck your tail and run?