"Fox 'Regrets' Remarks About Blacks"



  • OK, Pricehcs, either cut the valiums in half, quit chasing them with Cuervo or lay-off the Colombia Gold. We're running a forum here............ :)
  • Does anyone know what precipitated Vincente Fox's statement? There was a Denver police officer shot and killed here on May 8 and the suspect, an illegal alien, allegedly fled to Los Angeles, from where it is believed he and his family who lived there, went back to Mexico. Since Mexico will not extradite its citizens to a state where there is the death penalty, he is presumably safe there.

    There was speculation that Jorge, being friends with Fox, would intervene in this situation. It seems incongruous, but could Fox be justifying the vast numbers of his citizens being here and sending mucho dinero back to Mexico?

    This has caused (again) much discussion on talk radio here in Denver. I think the problem here is not as bad as in California, Arizona or Texas, but all of a sudden, statistics regarding the costs of health care, education, prison population, etc. have come to light again.

    What do y'all think?
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 05-19-05 AT 07:42AM (CST)[/font][br][br]This is the type of result I'm talking about. It will only grow in prominence. Interstates 20 & 55 both run through here. Almost weekly, deputies or troopers pull over a truck or van (for weaving, ha) and find a million dollar cache of cocaine or marijuana and $300,000 stuffed in a fender. 99% of the time they are illegal Mexicans running Texas tags (thus weaving). This is not about diversity or lack of sensitivity. I grew up in and have spent all my live in a very diverse area, including quite a few Mexicans and others who spoke Spanish in the MS Delta. I had no problem with them then and don't now.

    My objection is to the blind eye the government, democrats and liberals in general and people like Judy (redundancy there) turn to our country being totally overrun and eventually bankrupted by lack of border control and no enforcement of our laws regarding immigration. My opinion would be the same if we were talking about light skinned, blue eyed Canadians flooding our northern border.

    Nor is this about exposing classrooms to multiple languages or having signs up in Spanish (as long as they aren't ALL in Spanish, which they one day might be).

    Some would have you believe this is all about who is willing to pick fruit, slit catfish bellies or gut hogs. V. Fox strictly controls his own southern border, jailing those who attempt to cross it, but feels we should not even have one. It's to his political and personal advantage and interest to push this message. I may be one of the few people in this conversation who has the ability to see past the end of my nose on this issue. I have hope, though, for some of you.


  • This is all the sensationalist stuff that makes the news and gets everyone in a panick. Are there Mexican criminals living in the U.S.? Of course. Hispanics are now the largest minority group in the U.S., having surpassed African-Americans, yet crime rates associated with this group are disproportionately lower than other minority groups. Think of the most heinous crimes in the last 18 months. None were commited or attributed to hispanics. I've said this time and time again. The majority of hispanic immigrants, legal or illegal, come to this country to work and provide for their families and they often do so by performing jobs that mainstream "Americans" don't want. Contrary to popular belief, very seldom do they come over here to suck on the government teat.

    Does Fox like the arrangement? Hell yes! Why? Because of the number of $$ that these expatriates pump back into his economy! I've said this a million times before and I will say it again: Quit kidding yourselves folks! Our economy depends on this source of labor and it is not going to go away. I don't care who is in office, they are not going to make it go away. There are segments within our economy that would absolutely collapse!!! Locking down borders is not the answer. If you severed 100% of all illegal immigration TODAY, you would still have a 10+ million person problem tomorrow!

    Grant blanket amnesty and allow everyone to go apply for temporary residency, leading up to eventual permanent residency. Allow the families to immigrate here. Keep the dollars in our economy. Eventually, this group will assimilate into society just like the millions and millions of other immigrants who made this country what it is today.

  • And since the drug problems in America 'will not go away' and drivers continue to drive at an average highway speed of 78, let's do away with all the drug laws and let that money find its way into the tax system; and, raise the highway speed limit to 78, since that too is uncontrollable and 'will not go away'. And all of our other regulations that are tough or impossible to enforce, given the present approach, let's ease them up too or sh*t-can them. Blanket amnesty is a bogus concept. It's a non-answer, except for those receiving it. That would be the biggest of all possible recruitment ads for more and more of the same. Is lettuce and bacon and chicken the only reason we turn back boat loads of Cubans and Jamaicans? Boats are easy to spot and control and maybe sugar cane in Florida isn't as important to the economy. But, literally there's no difference in the Florida border being protected and that of Texas. If not for the liberals, every prisoner in California could be mandated to pick lettuce for his sustenance and every prisoner in Mississippi could be required to hoe cotton and slop hogs and eviscerate chickens. Now there's an answer to the smoke and mirrors dilemma of nobody being available to do the work.

    It's not entirely impractical to imagine that one day all of the work that might pay under ten dollars an hour will either be done in China or by amnesty workers living here. The rest of America will either be on the Lyndon Johnson perpetual Government Teat or........gosh, I don't know what the rest might be doing.
  • Don, you can't really be so narrow minded as to think this is a one-sided issue: uncontrolled borders. You are right in your analysis that the border controls are a joke and that the masses of illegals must be stopped, or at least slowed. But to ignore the question of "why are we so uncommitted to addressing the issue" ignores a major part of the equation. The liberals just want to let everybody in our country because they feel we have to cater to every oppressed person in the world, and to ignore their plight would be inhumane. Which, of course is nothing but bleeding heart liberal insanity. The conservatives want to ignore the problem because of the pressure from the business sector, who can't seem to find enough workers (a demographic reality).And when they hire the American worker, more times than not, they're disappointed in the lack of effort, performance and attitude - and anyone that is involved in hiring unskilled and even semi-skilled workers know for a fact those assessments are quite accurate. Are there committed and productive American unskilled workers? Sure. But they are few and far between and the cumbersome process of finding them and retaining them makes the prosepect of hirinig Mexicans quite appealing. Both issues, uncontrolled borders and the composition and qulaity of the labor pool, are part of the equation and one cannot be addressed without the other.
  • I don't disagree with a word you say; however, your analysis drags up a little short, don't you think. Take your analysis a step further. Ask yourself why, exactly, does this phenomenon exist. You think it's simply because the sun is a bit hotter in Mexico? Is it because they speak Spanish in Mexico? Could it be some Pancho Villa mentality? Certainly it's none of those. It's because that country does not have a twelve foot thick concrete foundation of government programs nor a pervasive mentality that they can sit on the porch or be unproductive and rewarded. They have respect for each other and their parents and know the consequences of not having that. That's where a so-called 'work ethic' originates. America has done this to itself. But, total abdication and throwing up of the arms, which you and Gene seem to preach, is not the answer. It will take a hundred years and three generations to reverse our mentality; but, we'll never do it.

    No, I don't think I'm narrow minded at all. In fact I feel I see the whole situation fairly clearly and I don't stop my analysis at a comfortable point. A thorough analysis asks the question 'why' at least five times. I think you stopped at about 2 or 3. Regards, I have to be careful with my number of posts. I'm history shortly. x:-)
  • Ah, but Mexico controlling it's southern border controls people coming here, so the Mexican authorities are helping us, right? They aren't going to Mexico for a better life - it's just a pass through country for them. The bottom line, though, is that demographics are changing (in part due to the two sided nature of government policy) and we can rail against it - to no avail, decide to embrace it, or as the vast majority does, not pay much attention and go on with life. That is what is going on in California, not the perjorative Mexifornia, and things work out fine. Personally, I don't care what language the signs are in, I understand them both, and when I don't understand a Spanish one, I can look in the dictionary. And as I have said before, the best thing that upcoming HR professionals can do to enhance their professional development, and employability, is to learn another language, and if they live in an area where the Spanish speaking population is gaining, then Spanish is it.
  • I'll admit, up front, that I don't have the answer to this problem, but here are a couple of my observations: Yes, G3, it would do us all a lot of good to learn a second language, but that language might better be Mandarin than Spanish.

    When a lot of Germans migrated to the upper midwest, or a lot of Scandinavians (including my forefathers), to the best of my knowledge, the locals didn't start labelling everything in those languages. My grandfather had to learn English as best he could in order to make a living and get by. When my aunt started school, and wouldn't reply to the teacher because she didn't know English, they didn't start teaching Finnish. (Actually, the teacher gave her a 'good whuppin'; but I'm not advocating that.) This is an English speaking country, if you want to live here and take advantage of the opportunities, learn the language! Are you going to demand to only speak English when you retire? The locals better adapt?

    If we need these people to do our jobs, then create a system to allow that, with work permits, etc, but control the border.
  • That's fine, but we have to do business in the environment that we have and waiting until the second or third generation when English will kick in is too long a wait. Having taught English to Spanish speakers, both as a volunteer and part of my consulting, I can tell you that learning English when one is working two or more jobs to make a living, plus be a part of a family is not easy. As usual, in any group, there are those who manage to get it done and learn the language. The majority don't but they will work their rear end's off for their employer. Their kids will speak English, though.

    We have to work with the practicalities of life, not how we might wish things to be.
  • Reply #2. No, when I retire (soon) I will speak English here and Spanish there. The locals don't have to adapt to me, I'll fit in, but that's because I already know the language, at least enough to get around very well. The things we do to accomodate Spanish speakers is nothing more than responding to demographics and marketing - and it may be different from the past, but we live with what we have today.
  • South Florida, with its heavy Cuban community has had everything from street signs to grocery store signage in both languages for decades. No one bitches. What's the big deal? Do you mean to tell me that you have a hard time finding your quart of 2% milk at the store simply because the big sign above the aisle says "Leche" instead of "Milk"?
  • Keeping in mind Don's tutorial on how the reply system works on the Forum, it seems you are responding to G3, but here's my response, anyway: No, I can still find my gallon of skim milk. That's not the issue at all. These great United States have been great partially because it has been the "melting pot". I know, I know, you may argue that it hasn't been, and yet, we have been successful because of the melding of nationalities, ideas, ideals, etc. I believe, in great part, that is true because we have shared a common language. You think my ancestors wouldn't have been happy to have their adopted country adapt to their needs, utilize their language as a second language, etc? What we'd have now, however, is a bunch of divergent groups, not a reasonably united country which can function regardless of who is in power, etc.

    I don't doubt, and certainly accept, that the great influx and growth of a particular ethnic group will tilt our society in their direction. I am not willing, personally, to accept two separate societies.

    My two cents' worth.
  • I think I'll join the rant.

    There are several issues in play in this discussion: Work ethic, welfare, illegal immigration, consumerism (is that a real word?) and capitalism.

    The fact that our brand of capitalism works so well has attracted immigrants from all over the world. Our long, generally unguarded Southern Border provides easy access for illegal immigration from the south. Combine that with the lower paying jobs that are somehow beneath most of our working population and you have the elements to spur on the stampede.

    Now add in the cost drivers associated with basic capitalism which rewards entreprenuers with more competitive bottom lines for paying lower wages, and the dynamics of the marketplace which is driven by the best products at the lowest price.

    Finally, add it the welfare system, which was originally designed as a safety net for that 1 1/2% to 3% of our population that just cannot function in a work environment. The physically and mentally handicapped, the scrambled war veterans, the emotionally unstable, etc etc. Sadly, the programs have expanded to include people that probably could make changes and be able to work, but have little incentive - they make enough on the programs to get by. Work 40 hours a week to make just a little bit more? No incentive, and by the way - this just in - work is hard and takes up your time.

    These components all work together to produce the elements of the problem we are striving to solve with a few paragraphs of opinions.

    Every few years we seem to grant amnesty - but don't stop the influx - which leads to another amnesty program a few years down the road.

    Now add it homeland security and the real threat of suitcase nukes and other instruments of terror.

    Come on now - are we really seriously concerned about these borders? I don't see any evidence that we are.

  • Leave it to Marc to bring a different and fresh prespective to the topic! I tend to think along the same lines that I think I'm hearing and that is that we talk a good game about securing borders but we don't either because we can't or we simply don't want to.
  • "Can't" my ass. Do you mean to tell me you actually think we can go to the moon but cannot cordon off 800 miles of dirt? I have no idea if that is an accurate distance of our southern border; but, you will never convince me that we 'can't' make it impenetrable. Hunter is right about the 'tilt' that our pinball machine is on the verge of experiencing. Some are blind to it, some don't give a hoot, some want to see it happen and some object to it. Include me in the last category. And, no, I don't need a Valium. I've just had a hydrocodone following a root canal but I still have my senses about me.

    P.S: G3 thinks he is immune from the effects this 'tilt' will have on our society simply because he can speak Spanish, has a pair of shades and likes margaritas. He may be right. But, if this country does not proactively address this situation soon, we are all in for significant surprises; and, the surprises ain't signs hanging in grocery stores.
  • I notice you chose to debate the obviously facetious reason, that we can't. Of course we can. Do you ever wonder why we don't? Debate that one.

    Tell me why the world's only remaining superpower, far more advanced in every facet of technology than anyone else on the face of this planet, with the most lethal and best trained militray force cannot accomplish the simple mission of securing our borders.

    I have my opinion on the why not's. I'm afraid you do too but it's a tough pill to swallow from either one of our vantage points. Chew on that.

    By the way, I've been in Atlanta since yesterday, I saw Jesse's freak parade at the King Center today and then I had lunch with one of the owners of our primary staffing vendors here. He just opened an office in Canton to service a subsidiary of the big automaker there. Guess what the largest industry in your backyard is asking for in terms of workers?
  • It's not that I 'choose to debate it', it's that you made a statement that either we can't or won't. I chose to comment on half of your statement. And your post above chose, as well, to remark on the 'Can't notion'.

    Here is your remark that I responded to. "I think I'm hearing and that is that we talk a good game about securing borders but we don't either because we can't or we simply don't want to."

    And as to the Nissan plant 8 miles north of me, It's a million square foot facility, one mile long along Interstate 55. They currently have over 5000 employees and the contractors have another 3000. Most of the resumes I receive are from those people who want to get the hell away from the auto industry. We're, as I said, 8 miles away, have been here for 32 years, with an average tenure of 18 years, having fourteen with 30 years. Most of my resumes come from Nissan or their contractors. I have lost one employee to Nissan since they opened two years ago, and she returned to us last week.

    I look forward to seeing your multiple 'edits' in red letters in the morning. But, don't call me to apologize like you do PoRk.

  • Ok, let's not split hairs over what points we chose to debate and which ones we didn't. I too have a Nissan plant in my backyard. Three miles away from our facility to be exact. It employs approximately 6300 regular employees. I'm not sure about the contractor figure but I would estimate it's about the same as in MS given that all ancilliary stuff is outsourced, from cleaning to driving cars on railcars and semis and everything in between.

    My point, which you chose to ignore, is that our governemnt chooses not to secure the borders. It's not partisan and it's got nothing to do with the usual diatribe about motor voter laws, etc, etc. It's a very simple concept. You don't choke-off the best source of labor our country has at its disposal. You can deny it, you can argue it and debate it all day long but it's a harsh reality.

    Unofficially, Nissan and it's subs has stopped hiring from within the "locals" due to the astronomical costs associated with WC. It is absolutely eating them alive. Their productivity and shoddy work is also an issue. Guess what demographic group they hire now? They've gone to vendors who will provide exactly what they are looking for. Like I said, the same staffing provider that services our facilities recently landed part of the Nissan business his payroll between both plants is roughly $1.1M per week. Do the math.

    I won't edit and I won't call. You've assumed that I call pOrK to apologize. I don't. I do it on this forum when appropriate.

  • All previous changes in demographics brought a "tilt" objected to by those who happened not to like the tilt. Heck, I remember going to school in north Florida when the Brown vs. Board of Education decision was made. One of my buddies said " I ain't going to school with no -------". And he didn't, since it took some years before desegregation kicked in - his kids did, though. That was a big "tilt". There are always dire predictions of disaster around the corner but it never turns out to as predicted by the objectors. I like Larry's post - people adjust to the changes. Those they don't, well, they just write letters to the editor bemoaning how we are going to hell in a handbasket, and everyone else goes on their merry way.
  • Now that the very earnest and sincere among us have had a go at this issue, let me tell you what we're doing here in Minnesota.

    For years and years we've had the problem of the Swedes and Norwegians using Canada as a "pass through" country to get to Minnesota. We built iron mines in Northern Minnesota to try and keep them out, but darn if that didn't just attract the Finns too.

    So the Blacks, Mexicans, Hmong, Hungarians (actually I'm the only Hungarian in the state), Indians and what have you all got together and we had a meeting to try to decide what to do with all these Scandinavians pouring into Minnesota. The Indians came up with a grand idea. They built these big buildings on their reservations and filled them with bright lights, bells, and free drinks, and put big signs out front saying "Free admission to all Scandinavians". And now the Indians are just sittin' there a smilin'. But the immigration issue remained a problem until an important breakthrough happened.

    The Norwegians have a group called the "Sons of Norway". Well the Swedes kept asking to join this group because they wanted to have fun on Wednesday nights too, but the Norwegians wouldn't let them. The Swedes couldn't understand why, although it was pretty obvious to the rest of us, especially the Norwegians. The Swedes continued their lobbying until, finally, the Norwegians relented and changed their name from the "Sons of Norway" to the "Sons of Bitches" so that the Swedes could join too, which they did. I think the reason they chose that name is because whenever you happen across a bunch of Swedes cooking lutefisk, your first thought is, "Son of bitch, what's that smell?" Well to continue here, I was happy because that meant that I could join too, which I did. Well wouldn't you know it, now everybody is joining. At the Welcome Dinner I brought out a jar of my Hungarian paprika and the Scandinavians recoiled in horror because they thought it was red pepper and God forbid you should ever season any of THEIR food. If it's not salt, pepper, or lye, forget it! The Mexicans had a great time with their peppers, telling the Scandys that it was fruit. The Blacks and the Hmong brought in their daily catch from the Mississsippi and the St.Croix and, wouldn't you know it,the Swedes start chanting, "lutefisk...lutefisk". Well, before you could say, "Son of a bitch, what's that smell", out come the grills and smokers and that ended that discussion. The Indians just sat there a smilin'.

    Well the happy ending here is that just about the whole state of Minnesota now is full of nothing but S.O.B.'s and we're all getting along just fine. Now, what to do with the Cheesehead invasion from the East. I'm sure one of us S.O.B.'s will come up with an idea. I'll keep you posted.

    I hope I offended everybody with his post. If I left you out, I'm sorry. Believe me, there's room for just about anybody in the S.O.B.'s.

    Boy, all that writing made me thirsty. I think I'll buy a 12 pack of "Inner Peace" on the way home today.
  • Great post, Larry. That ought to cut off all debate about the issue. :)

    Hunter aka The Finnlander
  • Larry, I thought you were going to introduce Olie and Lina somewhere in that story.x;-)
  • Ahhhhh, a turn for the better. Don't even get me started on Ole & Lena - - You heard they got married. When they were nearing Minneapolis on their honeymoon, Ole put his hand on Lena's knee. Giggling, Lena said, "Ole, you can go a little further now if ya vant to"...so Ole drove to Duluth.
  • After they had been married for 40 years, Ole and Lena decided to go on a trip. When they got to Fargo, Ole pulled over to fill up with gas.

    The attendant came over to the window and asked Ole, "What'll it be?"

    Lena, being very hard of hearing asked "WHAT DID HE SAY?"

    Ole replies "HE ASKED WHAT'LL IT BE?"

    Ole said to the attendant, "Fill it up please."

    Lena asked, "WHAT DID YOU SAY?"

    Ole told her, "I SAID HE SHOULD FILL IT UP!"

    The attendant then asked Ole, "Where are you from?"

    Ole answered, "We're from Minneapolis, taking a little trip."

    Lena demands "WHAT DID HE SAY?"

    Ole, getting more and more irritated, says, "HE ASKED WHERE WE WERE FROM. I TOLD HIM MINNEAPOLIS AND WE WERE TAKING A LITTLE TRIP!!"

    The attendant conversationally adds, "Minneapolis huh? I have been to Minneapolis. Worst sex I ever had was in Minneapolis."

    Lena asked, "WHAT DID HE SAY?"

    Ole replies, very irritated now, "HE THINKS HE KNOWS YOU!!!"
  • Now THAT's what I come to the har d har har section for, HUMOR! I forgot about all the Ole and Lena stories, my ex lives in Mpls as do his relatives and I don't get to hear that odd humor any more... Love it!
  • G3: You are as wrong as a 180 in a no u-turn zone! All of your last comments are false. We have in fact already gone to hell in a handbasket. Look around yourself. Your particular state is the leader of the pack in handbasket sales. God is not allowed in our classrooms or our businesses or our government buildings. You can't find a can of whupass at any drugstore nowadays whereas in the past every daddy had a case in his dresser drawer. Your American hero, Lyndon Johnson, has ensured that most every prediction of 20 years ago has come true and some we never imagined. Letters to the editor reflect that we have indeed made the trip to hell rather than that we are headed that way. Men are marrying men, women are marrying women. In our midst are groups proudly advocating anal sex between big men and little boys (NAMBLA for one). We get into a celebratory St. Vitas Dance at the sight of a twisted man who sleeps with boy children while hoping his nose stays on his face. The iron business is big and unable to keep up with orders for burglar bars and driveway gates. Who could have predicted that when 30 years ago we left our doors unlocked and our bicycles in the yard? We allow our public higher education institutions to be staffed by radical liberals with goals of turning our children into images of themselves. We allow our children to roam the streets and protect them in newsconferences when they're caught with a 9mm pistol in a stolen car. We've become a 'blame someone else' society where personal responsibility and obligations and goals are as rare as a two headed frog. Our grand and great grandparents, Democrat & Republican, Christians, Athiests, and others, white and black, native American and immigrants alike would cry and swear our behaviors must be a bad dream. When they realized they were not dreams, they would cut a switch and whip the living sh*t out of our bare legs. We have become a society of no-consequences and low-bar expectations; and, I agree there are far too many among us, like G3, who think it's a cool, natural progression and they whistle as they wade through the cesspool. They've had shades on so long they actually think the water is supposed to be that color.
  • My comments were about demographics pertaining ethnic groups which was what we were dealing with, not the rest of the stuff. On some of them I agree with you, on others I don't.
  • Goodness! What a dismal outlook on life Don writes of. Sure there are problems in this country but I still think it is a wonderful place to live and if you think this country has "gone to hell in a handbasket" maybe you should leave? I love my life and I leave my front door unlocked half the time and although I don't leave a bike in the front yard I do have other items of worth there and I don't fear. I certainly don't make a lot of money and I live in middle income area. Beating your kids is not the answer to ANYTHING! and it seems to me that those kids that were beatin are the age of the parents of todays generation that you seem to think is so horrible, a connection maybe? The young people I know are responsible and law abiding citizens with good morals and brilliant minds and they were NOT beaten by their parents nor were they raised in religious right households. Instead of focusing on the negative look at the positive. Cultural and social diversity are one of the many things that make this country so great. If you want a country with one rule one law go somewhere like Iraq and see how you like it.
  • Blogs can be wonderful things. Below is a quote taken from a political blog associated with the print news. I know nothing about the veracity of the poster, but it does provide another angle to the porous border debate. Our open borders not only allow in the type of illegal aliens discussed so far on this thread, but also allow in terrorists disguised as poor Mexicans looking for work.

    "A missionary friend home on holiday from Mexico says the Muslims are making inroads in Mexico and will soon be exporting their faith across the border into the USA using Mexican illegals to accomplish the task. Think about it."

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