Firefighter Pay for Training

MaryHR · November 2004

I have a situation that I am not sure how to handle. Some of our ff's are now instructors for training. When they teach a training session, do they get paid overtime or are they contract labor with a 1099, or how do I handle this. I am getting conflicting information when I google this and I want some facts before I meet with the Fire Chief on this issue. Any help would be appreciated.

Mary

zen · November 2004

When I have firefighter ee's who aquire a trainer's certification, they are paid overtime for training they assist with or provide outside their normal shift. They are also paid OT for continuing education time required to maintain their instructor status as well as reimbursed for supplies, testing, or enrollment fees for classes/training required.

Don D · November 2004

Zen is correct in my opinion. When an employee occasionally, periodically, or even regularly involves themselves in activities that might appear to be those of an exempt employee, he/she doesn't change classification hats. All of their hours should be looked at as hours worked during that workweek and overtime would apply.

I would think you should also revise the job description to include something like: "May, upon certification, train or assist in the training and instruction of other personnel, as assigned."

Hunter1 · November 2004

I'm kind of late, was on vacation, but, they are definitely NOT contract labor with a 1099. The rest of the answer depends on a number of things: Is the position exempt or non-exempt? If exempt, you can have them teach without further compensation. If non-exempt, their compensation may be determined by a labor agreement, ordinance, state law, or by the Fair Labor Standards Act. As you may know, the 7(k) exemption, if you are using it, may provide time beyond 40 hours per week that is not subject to overtime pay. If you still have questions, you can email me directly.

crawfod · December 2004

I'm late too but am curious as to what you decided to do. Making a few assumptions here, such as: these ff/instructors normally work 24 on/48 off, are subject to the 212 hour/28 day OT rule, are instructing on days not normally scheduled, then we would pay them OT for eligible hours beyond the 212. Our city only counts hours "worked" for OT purposes, not holiday/vacation/sick leave hours. Some cities pay higher wages for such skills for the hours actually instructing, in addition to whatever OT they end up qualifying for.

MaryHR · December 2004

Thank you for your inputs. You helped to clarify what I already thought. A little more background: our firefighters are non-exempt and they work shifts of 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 24 off, 24 on and then 96 off. I have been here 4 years (previously as the Accountant) and when I started, there were only 8 ee's (2 Admin). We have grown so fast (mostly in the last year) that we now have 43 ee's (4 Admin). We will be over 50 ee's in January 05. We created the HR position this last summer and I moved into that. It has been hard to get this area going as everyone is used to doing things their way and not passing through me. Training has also grown. We used to send our guys to a neighboring department, but have since developed our own Training dept. In comes the pay issue. Our Fire Chief is still arguing that they can be paid as contract labor. He says our Attorney ok'd it and it is legal. The new Accountant and I disagree. We think it should be OT. Of course, training is always scheduled for a day they are not on shift because they want the extra pay. Our Fire Chief is away at a conference right now, but I am trying to get all my ducks in a row so when he gets back, we can "discuss" this more.

Sorry for the long post and once again, thanks for the input.

Mary

Hunter1 · December 2004

Your firefighters work the same schedule as ours. We do almost all of our training when our employees are 'on shift', but, then, we have a 40 hr/wk training officer, so he overlaps all of the shifts. Hold your ground on the contract labor. Both the chief and the attorney are WRONG!

MaryHR · December 2004

We have a 40 hr/wk training captain now too and she does schedule each training on each shift so that the ff's can attend while they are on shift, but the ff's that she has instructing the classes always have those other 2 shifts that they have to teach when they are not on shift. She (the training captain) agrees with me and is starting to utilize people outside our dept for a lot of the training, but we still have some of our ff's doing some of it. It is so frustrating. I feel as if they (senior staff) won't listen to me because I am new in the HR world, even though as the accountant I did it all. I know it is wrong and that frustrates me. Our accountant is ready to quit after only 3 months and I don't want her too, she is awesome.

crawfod · December 2004

MaryHR, one thing you may explain to your Fire Chief is that since the material your ffs are teaching has a direct correlation to their jobs, that's why it has to be counted as compensable time. Now, if they were teaching a non Fire related subject, they probably could be considered as "contractors" for that type training.

P.S. How does a 24 on, 24 off...96 off schedule work? Do you have 3 crews? I can't make that fit a calendar. Just curious.

MaryHR · December 2004

Yes we have 3 shifts. It works well for them. I wish I had those hours.
I have tried explaining that to the Chief. It is like he doesn't want to acknowledge that we have grown and these guys aren't just volunteers anymore. He just keeps telling me that it was cleared through our attorney and it is ok. However, I do not know if our attorney "cleared" this while we were still a majority volunteer dept or since we have switched to majority paid. It makes a difference.

mrbill · December 2004

Good to read a thread involving a Municipality instead of private industry. Our FF's work 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, then 120 hours (5 day's) off.
We try to have all the training conducted when they are "on", even if it involves multiple sessions. If I recall, a sister city sent FF's to the training academy, after they were on the force for 6 months, and they charged them with overtime for travel time.
It's a great job 98% of the time.

crawfod · December 2004

MaryHR, I can't get your shift arrangement out of my head. Help me sleep better. If A crew works M,W,F, and then is off Sa,S,M,T, and B crew works T,Th,Sa, and then is off S,M,T,W, then how can S,M,T be covered, assuming C crew has the same rotating schedule? I'm sure there's a simple formula, but at this point of day I don't get it.

Also, so when does your overtime hours kick in? And if you pay weekly, that would seem to produce a BIG check one week and a little bitty check the next? Thanks.

Hunter1 · December 2004

I'll work with March of 2004, since it starts out right: Red shift works the first, 3, 5, 10, 12, 14, 19, 21, 23, etc. Blue shift works the second, 7, 9, 11, 16, 18, 20, etc. Green works the 4th, 6, 8, 13, 15, 17.

Nine work days a month, A great job. Everyone has a second job.

Don't tell anyone, but we average pay so employees don't get varying checks. A nightmare!

MaryHR · December 2004

Like I said, I wish I had their hours. Almost all of our guys have a second job. It would be easy with so much time off. One of our guys works for the ambulance, they have the same shift schedule as us, so he is just on a different shift. Works out great for him and you still get over a week off each month.

Thanks Hunter1, you explained the shift schedule better than I did!

MaryHR · December 2004

I wouldn't want you to miss any sleep on my account!!! There are 3 shifts, A, B & C. They work on a 27 day schedule with 3 rotations in each schedule. A rotation is the 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 96 off. For instance, the schedule they are on now is from November 24 thru Dec 20. B shift worked 24, 26 & 28 then off for 4 days, then they work Dec 3, 5 & 7 and off for 4 days, then work 12, 14 and 16th. That gives each shift 216 hours in each 27 day schedule. OT is calculated by the 27 day schedule. They are salary with some of their OT calculated in their salary amount. Which when you take out the OT portion of their salary, their hourly rate pretty much sucks. Does that help? I don't want to be the cause of you being tired and grumpy tomorrow!!

Mary

crawfod · December 2004

Thanks to you and Hunter, my mind was put to rest. Good luck and let us know how it all sorts out.

Firefighter Pay for Training

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