"...But I already paid for my trip!"

KP68 · May 2005

Employee has a vacation planned for the fall, and it's been paid for. Same employee has also used up all but 3 vacation days already this year.

Surprisingly, or maybe not, I received a Certification for FMLA on the fax machine today, and the medical facts for the request for intermittent leave are not legible. Coincidentally, it states that the duration of the intermittent leave is 3-7 days at a time 3-5 times a year. The reason for leave is stated for "absence plus treatment", and "chroinc conditions requiring treatment". Her manager told me it is for high blood pressure, but it is not legible...if that is the case, she is taking meds for this.

I want to ask for clarification on the medical facts (not the diagnosis, don't worry!) as it is pretty obvious this person is trying to get time off for the paid vacation in five months.

How has this been handled by others? I'm sure this is not surprising to any of you...just looking for info and/or insight. Do I just have to bite the bullet on this?? Is there anything we can or can't do?

LindaS · May 2005

There are a couple of things that you can/should do...

First of all, if the writing is illegible go to the EE and tell them that they need to obtain additional information as the information that is stated is not legible and that in absence of new information you will have to deny their request for leave.

Second, what does your attendance policy state regarding medical certification in the event of an illness/injury? For example, our states that any illness/injury that requires 3 days off work requires a doctor's slip verifying the need for leave before the EE is permitted to return. This is done for both FMLA and non-FMLA related conditions. In this instance, if your attendance policy has some wording to this effect, you have the right to require a medical slip if the EE is out for 3 days or more (which will probably happen if the EE has a vacation scheduled).

Third, you have the right to require re-certification in a variety of instances, one of them being if you question the use of the leave as long as it is not more frequent than 30 days.

I had a similar situation once and was able to deny the leave due to following my policies.

Good luck.

KP68 · May 2005

The attendance policy is such that unless an employee's time off qualifies for one of our leaves (FMLA being one), they are subject to disciplinary action. This group of employees feels that FMLA is their "trump card" for getting additional time off once their sick and/or vaction time is exhausted.

deniseE · May 2005

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 05-09-05 AT 02:51PM (CST)[/font][br][br]This is one of those situations where you can't "unknow" what you already know. Aside from the illegibility of the form, if you didn't know about the vacation, you might not be questioning the FMLA cert.

It is wise to request a more clear form for your records, but if a doctor is willing to back up the leave request, there's not much you can do. FMLA is a great protector, but it can be abused. Which is why it is a finite amount of time.

edit: The other thing you could do is verify that the doctor really signed the form. If you can show that she forged the document, you might be able to terminate.

Don D · May 2005

"it states that the duration of the intermittent leave is 3-7 days at a time 3-5 times a year"

What a sweet deal. 35 days off (7x5). As is often the case with physicians, this is an example of the absurd, with which you cannot do much. Nobody needs to knock off work for a week at a time several times a year to get their damned blood pressure under control. But, often we have to just 'put up with' FMLA in these cases. One of Congresses greatest boondoggles. Had Clinton/Gore remained in office, it would have been expanded to include veterinary visits and school plays.

Fair Employer · May 2005

Does your policy allow for unpaid leave other than FMLA? If so, why not offer the employee the two days off without pay(no FMLA). FMLA is without pay, so I don't see the difference. The with pay or without pay must not be an issue for this employee since the trip is already paid for.

If your policy does not allow for this type of leave, let the employee take the time off but put a reprimand in their file. This may be a tough lesson for the employee to learn that you are all given a set number of vacation days and when they are all used there are consequences for taking more than you are given.

It sounds like this employee is grasping at straws to get the time off.

KP68 · May 2005

"Grasping at straws" is a nice way to put it.....this particular office is famous for doing this, due to attendance problems. We are getting away from "unpaid days" as they can snowball out of control and is difficult for managers to put a stop to, and there is too much discretion involved.

So I guess we have to wait for clarification on the illegible info and I will see what it states...not that it'll matter, but I at least want the employee to know that it just isn't as easy as getting a dr. to write just anything down (...or is it?! :-?)

Whatever · May 2005

I'm wondering if it is reasonable to ask the doctor how he knows the ee will need treatment several months for now.

KP68 · May 2005

I'd like to know that as well, but to my knowledge, the only way we can determine this is by asking for recertification when allowed. No other way to get info from the doctor for FMLA.

And just to give you an idea as to the frustration level on this, whenever an employee potentially qualifies or is in need of FML, they have to get the forms from me. I never sent the Cerfication to her, and yet I got a completed one sent back to me (hmmmm.....).

I believe she got a copy from a co-worker, as she was discussing how to get this time off.

Her manager just gave her an attendance warining, as she is almost out of vacation time for the year, and when presented with this information, her response was simply to ask how long it'll take to get her FMLA approved - no mention of needing time for her paid vacation in September.

KP68 · May 2005

So I got the revised form back...same form as before, but it now states it is due to asthma and hypertension, and that she "needs periodic follow ups".

So...I'm thinking that I'd approve this for future doctor appointments due to these conditions. Would you agree?
That could possibly alleviate the 3-5 day duration for absences, if I state it this way. What do you think?

atrimble · May 2005

I think this situation is where the 12-months backwards rolling count of FMLA-protected absences would really be effective. I mean, really - high blood pressure doesn't just come on to the extreme where the ee'd have to miss work in the future because of it. Has she missed work since last fall due to her "serious medical condition?" Depending on how your policy is written, you may be able to count any other serious health condition absences (whether related to high blood pressure or not) against her current FMLA allotment (if she was aware that this was your policy). Then tell her she has, for example, only 87 hours left of her 480 hour annual "entitlement." She should then be able and more willing to find a way to make it to work.

-Abby

KP68 · May 2005

OK, I have an idea....since her dr. seems to know that she'll need 3-7 days off, 3-5 times per year, due to hypertension and asthma (a condition she has had since 2003 but hasn't needed time off for it unitl now!!), can I see if there are any reasonable accommodations for her, according to the ADA? Or am I grasping at straws here, and just have to bite the bullet and approve it?

Maybe we could determine that there are no accommodations necessary?

(Can you tell I'm desperate??)

Don D · May 2005

Neither asthma nor HBP are going to meet the definition of ADA covered disability. While ADA protection requires reasonable accommodation, FMLA does not. So, you have no need to consider reasonable accommodation. It doesn't enter the picture, technically, legally. Ulcers is not a disability either, and, that's what you're going to get from obesssing over this one. Continue to give her a little rope.

KP68 · May 2005

My goal is to let these employees know that misuse of FMLA is not going to be tolerated. The reason is because we are seeing a new trend in this particular department and want to be prepared for future situations like this one, and I can guarantee you that this will come up again at least 10 times this year (but don't worry Don, I won't post them).

Too many times we just "roll over" and accept these bogus claims that will give employees time off when they are not responsibile enough to manage the time off they are allowed each year.

FMLA is NOT a "get out jail free" card, and my intention is to let the abusers know that we take these claims very seriously and will reveiw them at great lengths, even if it does eventually get approved.

I'm probably not saying anything all of you don't already know or feel about FMLA and it's certainly not for lack of experience - I have dealt with abuse of this for some time now, and I guess this particular situation has got the best of me....at least it has forced me to read the fine print of the regs, so not a total loss.

I will stop obsessing now.

Whatever · May 2005

Is this ee taking medicine for the high blood pressure. If so, and it is working, than she shouldn't need a FMLA. As for the asthma, no one can predict when an attack will occur.

lorrie · May 2005

Are you interested in requesting a second opinion? You have to pay for it, but you can choose the doctor and if you really doubt the validity of the first one, it might be worth it. If a second doctor is willing to go along with the first, then you might at least feel a little better about it.

"...But I already paid for my trip!"

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