Positive Discipline
Lisa_in_TX
10 Posts
Hi, Everyone!
Has anyone fully implemented a "positive discipline" or "discipline without punishment" system to replace traditional progressive discipline? I work for a manufacturer who is exploring this approach to corrective action, and would be most interested in hearing feedback from folks who have tried it.
Does it work for you?
Have you ever had to defend a termination that was made following using this sytem in court?
Have you seen any substantial difference in effectiveness in changing employee behavior and/or impact on employee engagement?
Any feedback would be appreciated!!
Thanks in advance!
Has anyone fully implemented a "positive discipline" or "discipline without punishment" system to replace traditional progressive discipline? I work for a manufacturer who is exploring this approach to corrective action, and would be most interested in hearing feedback from folks who have tried it.
Does it work for you?
Have you ever had to defend a termination that was made following using this sytem in court?
Have you seen any substantial difference in effectiveness in changing employee behavior and/or impact on employee engagement?
Any feedback would be appreciated!!
Thanks in advance!
Comments
We have a four step progressive counseling program. #1 - Coaching - a very informal disucssion with the ee to cover "their" opportunity and explain why this is not acceptable. #2 - Verbal- more serious disucssion with the ee and make sure to explain what the consequences may be if this continues, the supervisor will make written notes for their files but still nothing in the ee personnel file. #3 - Written - much more serious and it goes in their personnel file - ee must write their plan of action stating what they will do different to ensure this situation does not continue. #4 - Day Off with Pay - final step - ee is given their next scheduled day off with pay to think about the seriousness of their situation and to once again write a plan of action. We do not consider Termination a step as we believe this is when our program failed to correct the situation. Of course we are clear to point out that due to the severity of the situation the frist step we take may be at any level or even immediate termination.
So far this program has worked very well for us. It may have changed but during my previous life it was noed that the term "Positive Discipline" was a copyrighted name. This may have changed over the past decade.
Good luck...
Your progressive couseling system seems to have the focus that we are interested in exploring!
In your experience, would you say that this approach has led to better, worse, or about the same results as the traditional progressive discipline system (coaching/verbal warning/written reprimand/suspension without pay/termination)?
Thanks again!
Sorry, don't mean to be a smart-as#, well, maybe I do, but really,what do you expect to get from "disciplining" someone when there is no discomfort associated with the consequences of not improving?? You can coach some employees back into accpetable performance, and not have to go much further. But,as you know from working in the manufacturing world, you deal with many more problem employees who don't respond to "suggestions to improve", but rather need an eventual kick in the proverbial as%, and, ultimately, showed the door when there is no improvement. You need to spell out potential consequences (i.e. written warnings, suspensions or termination) when problems continue, and that is what holds the most water in legal proceedings or EEOC charges. I beleive the "new wave" disciplinary approaches are developed by the same folks that infiltrated our schools with the idea that children don't need to learn, they just need to have high self esteem.
I'm done..
>a big group hug, sing kumbaya, and give each
>other foot messages???
Actually we have empowered teams, so they would be able to select whichever campfire song they wanted (within proscribed boundaries, of course)......x;-)
But, seriously, while I do appreciate you sharing your feelings on this issue, I'm really hoping to find some folks who have actually given this approach a try and learn from their experiences.
We are operating in an extremely competitive business environment which requires very high levels of individual productivity, and we are facing a very tight labor market for skilled talent. Given that combination, we are trying to find ways to improve employee engagement and retention. We are not interested in giving employees a "free ride" by any stretch of the imagination and any approach that we take will need to allow us to hold employees to high standards, but if there is an approach to corrective action that lets us improve engagement, do a better job of getting the behavior we desire, and/or reduce costly turnover, then we certainly want to explore that alternative.
Thanks again!
While I admire the effort to find the best, most efficient "motivation" system available, it has been my experience that a disciplinary system needs just that - discipline. Any program, when consistently implemented and managed, will be effective. It may not be pleasant to discipline an employee, but it helps prevent unwanted behaviors and is effective in managing the employee life-cycle. Not to mention a progressive discipline policy REALLY helps out in the courtroom. Why try to re-invent the wheel? We know this approach works.
Balance the carrots with the sticks. Nothing but carrots only makes the donkey fatter and lazier.
Thanks for your opinions regarding the merits of the traditional progressive discipline system. It is an interesting discussion, and one that we are having within our organization. Rest assured that we have a diverse team of folks who are collecting data and looking into a number of alternative solutions. Certainly, if there is no evidence to support a change, then we will simply drive for consitency within our current system of progressive discipline.
My goal with the original post was to gather some preliminary data from HR professionals who are actually using this different approach in the field. If they are finding significant benefits from this approach, then I would like to explore it further. If they are having a negative experience, then I would certainly like to report that back to the team as well.
Thanks again for your opinions.
--Lisa in TX
We generally do some informal counseling before an employee reaches the formal discipline process. This works sometimes.
Our formal discipline process consists of:
1st Written Warning, 2nd Written Warning, Final Written warning, which includes an unpaid 2-day suspension and then, if all else fails, Termination.
However, no matter what step of the process we are in, we always try to end on a positive note, so that the employee sees that we want him/her to turn things around. I usually say something like "The decision is yours - we don't want to terminate your employment."
Obviously, if the violation is serious enough, we will skip to a Final Warning or immediate termination.
I guess I would characterize our discipline system as a hybrid between traditional/progressive and positive. Steps are:
1. Record of Conference.
2. Notice of Unsatisfactory Performance or Conduct.
3. Disciplinary Probation.
4. Decision Leave (like you described, a day off with pay for the ee to decide on a last chance basis whether to get it together or resign with impunity).
5. Termination (with opportunity to appeal to our agency head before it's finalized)
Some people think giving a day off with pay is more of a reward than a negative consequence, but I've found that it works well to really get the ee's attention and let them know that their fate is in their own hands. It makes the discipline process more of an adult-to-adult transaction than an adult-child interaction, which I believe is one of the tenets of positive discipline.
We've never had anyone take us to court about a dismissal since this system has been in place (about 20 years). We repeatedly stress that we're an at-will employer but at the same time our actual practice is to due process people to death. For us, this has been a winning combination that has made our dismissals just about bullet proof (so far; knock on wood).
At each step, the employee is coached and given time to improve their performance. They are also informed of the next step if the performance issue does not improve. We do not follow the 4 steps for each infraction. We may terminate on step one depending on the situation.
I have used the Last Chance option on a couple of occasions. One EE made a turn around and the other left our employment voluntarily.
I searched online until I found this definition of the positive discipline process:
1) Identify the problem (the gap between the actual & desired behavior)
2) Analyze the problem's severity (determine the impact and consequences of the behavior if not corrected)
3) Discuss the problem (with the employee, gain their agreement on a solution)
4) Document the discussion (including the history of the problem and what was said and agreed upon)
5) Follow-up to monitor results (recognize improvements, or take action if the problem hasn't resolved)
If this process is close to what you are thinking of, I would have to say that its very similar to the process our exec director uses when he disciplines.
From observing him (or sometimes being the one recieving the discipline) I can say it does work. It seems to require a good deal of time and trust. Both parties must essentially be working towards the same goal.
The process can be frustratingly slow and sometimes I felt like "banging heads" would have been a better response. However, its respectful to the individual and its less "destructive" to the organization.
Some people (in my opinion) might take advantage of the "feel good" approach and come across as compliant and remorseful but never change. Just because an employee agrees with the process doesn't guarantee anything.
I will say that I haven't always felt good about my own discipline style. Sometimes I feel like I have achieved the results I wanted but at too high of a cost. I guess I worry about that as a parent too.
I think there is some wisdom in this process if only for the fact that when you look back on your interactions with people, you won't see a trail of bodies.
When you really look at this system (positive discipline) it really is no different than the "traditional" approach, its just wrapped in a new, less intimidating name. The traditional progressive discipline does everything that is mentioned in your post. It starts with an observed problem (actual vs. desired behavior/performance), the severity is determined and a discussion takes place (verbal or written warning, with a requested commitment from the employee to change), documentation occurs, including what occurs if there is no positive change. Action is taken if the problem continues, which could be further warnings, suspensions or termination. So, how is this any different? Is it an effective system? Sure, its what most HR folks have been using for decades. If you want to give it a new name, have at it.
If it is, I suppose the major difference is positive discipline emphasizes a collaborative approach to resolving problems over the traditional progressive discipline policy which is "here is what you did wrong, this is what you need to do better, and this is what will happen to you if you don't"
Maybe its subtle but I think there is a difference.
I think its also possible that we are confusing the term "punishment" with "accountability". Positive discipline does seem to have accountability but it seems to try to get away from the idea of "punishment".
I'd be interested to hear from Lisa though on all of this.
I have used a positive progressive discipline for over 15 years in both a hospital with over 800 employees and a manufacturing facility with over 200 employees. In both cases it worked very well. During those years I never had a complaint or law suit resulting from a positive discipline personnel action. This approach is much more demanding of employees because it puts the responsability for change on the employee and they are part of developing the solution. Using a punitive approach only causes tempoary change and resentment. You will get resesistance from managers because we are all brought up to think punishing is the best way to get change. Don't give up. I recommend the program developed by Dr. Green called Positive Discipline.
I have a supervisor who has been fairly militaristic and harsh with some of his staff and its caused him problems. Fortunately, he is receptive to feedback and wants to improve his people management skills. I ordered two copies of this book "Positive Discipline" (43 cents used on Amazon.com) and I think we will read through it and use it as a point of discussion.
Lifelong learning. Constant forward progress. That's the goal.
Our team is looking at a variety of approaches to corrective action including positive discipline, discipline without punishment, traditional progressive discipline, and a number of "hybrid approaches".
I hadn't found the Green book, so I will venture out to Amazon after this post and pick it up. Thanks for the tip!
I do have a copy of Grote's book, "Discipline Without Punishment", and his Reminder 1/Reminder 2/Decision Making Leave approach is one of the alternatives that we are looking at.
There is certainly accountability in both the Positive Discpline and DWP systems. Where they differ from Progressive Discipline (as our organization is currently implementing it anyway) is that subtle difference in focus an earlier poster mentioned. There are some semantic differences to be sure ( in DWP for example, verbal reprimand becomes a Reminder 1, written becomes Reminder 2, etc.), but to me the key difference is that the focus of the intervention shifts from "what the company is doing to you" (impacting your variable pay, sending you home without pay, putting a letter in your file) to "what you going to do differently to meet expectations".
Thanks again for the great conversation!!
--Lisa in TX