What would you call it...

lnelson · July 2005

Fired or Quit

I was trying to talk to an ee about something they were working on that had been in my care previously and I needed some answers due to them never asking me any questions regarding the procedure or anything. Upon starting to discuss the issue the ee got very angry which I must admit made me a little hot under the collar needless to say that the ee did not want to discuss and said they had had it and proceeded to walk out of my office I tried to stop the ee but she kept going I informed her by doing so I consider her to be quitting. The ee clean out her desk and left no further word. I left msg at ees home but no response. This morning I had a voice mail stating I had 24 hrs to get her check to her since she was fired. I called again and got answer machine. I never said she was fired but interpetted her actions as quitting.

What do you think?

Lisa

SMace · July 2005

Quit.

HRsage · July 2005

She walked off the job and quit.

I would just document what happened and have it ready for the UI Claim which you know is just around the corner.

You just need to have her final check for her within 72 hours of her walking off the job.

marc · July 2005

Agree that she quit. NV would also require 72 hours to pay.

Sounds like you pushed each others buttons during this conversation. Good thing you are/were the boss.

Balloonman1 · July 2005

Quit/resignation. Actaully if you fired her you would have to pay in a "timely" manner, depends on the state.
WIth quiting, check, often you can wait until the next regular check run.

I would not do anything not required......and would send the check, and a notice that she quit certified mail return receipt.
My $0.02 worth........
The Balloonman

LivindonSouth · July 2005

Constructive Discharge if she can prove it.
Depends on what she claims and what the referee or hearing officer believes. If you dare to admit to him that you 'got a little hot under the collar', you could be sunk. Good luck.

Disclaimer: This message is not intended to offend or attack. It is posted as personal opinion. If you find yourself offended or uncomfortable, email me and let me know why.

HRLASS · July 2005

Quit / constructive discharge. Doesn't sound like anyone's going to come out of this one looking good. You could have fired her for insubordination, but under the circumstances it doesn't sound like it's going to be that clean. It could easily be seen as constructive discharge by your DOL/UI Dept. if the "hot under the collar" stuff comes up, per Livindon. I would consider this to be a high probability you will be paying benefits.

LarryC · July 2005

Quit, unless she cleans out her desk every day before she leaves.

I had a similar case and won it at the UI hearing. One instance will usually not be enough to mount a constructive discharge case unless it's severe.

All that said, you will still be at the mercy (read whim) of the administrative judge. Document well and good luck.

njjel · July 2005

Quit - I don't believe a one time incident would warrant constructive discharge. Let it play out and see what happens. Your state DOL guidelines determine when the final pay check is to be paid. in NJ it is the next regular pay day.

Crout · July 2005

Sounds like you were giving her feedback on her performance, and she got angry and walked off the job. I agree with the advice not to admit that you too were a little hot under the collar.

lnelson · July 2005

Thanks for the responses.

I am expecting a dispute on the reason for discharge but we will see.

Gillian3 · July 2005

Quit/Resigned. This isn't constructive discharge - that takes abusive conduct, intended to make someone quit, and which is to the point where the typical employee would also quit.

LivindonSouth · July 2005

And that, my dear Sinclair, is precisely what I expect the claimant to allege in her claim for unemployment insurance, and in her appeal if it reaches that point. "Not only did the HR Manager become abusive and threatening in our conversation that day, but she exhibited the same behavior on January 6, March 10 and 14, April 23rd and June 4 and 12." (for example)

Disclaimer: This message is not intended to offend or attack. It is posted as personal opinion. If you find yourself offended or uncomfortable, email me and let me know why.

Gillian3 · July 2005

Maybe so, but it still doesn't rise to the level of constructive discharge. Ask any attorney.

LivindonSouth · July 2005

I'm afraid you are incorrect and you might want to consult an attorney yourself. A manager who consistently berates an employee, belittling their efforts, sets them up for failure on purpose, stifles their ability to perform their duties and generally intentionally makes their employment situation a miserable one with an intention of 'running them off', is certainly probably guilty of constructively discharging that employee if that employee quits out of a sense of disgust, frustration or emotional distress. That is the point I am making. This ex-employee can conceivably paint that picture in the claims process. Otherwise, constructive discharge has no consequence or importance unless it involves medical issues such as depression or other psychiatric episodes attributable to the manager's conduct. Then you're looking at bucks.

In the scenario I presented, this employee has documented evidence, probably witnesses, a satchel full of evidence, one audio tape and maybe even three invoices from her psychiatrist.

I do not imply that the original poster is guilty of any of this. This is simply rolled out as an illustration of a possibility. Employees have done stranger things after they quit a job.

Disclaimer: This message is not intended to offend or attack. It is posted as personal opinion. If you find yourself offended or uncomfortable, email me and let me know why.

Gillian3 · July 2005

If what you describe actually happened, then maybe so. What is described is an HR person getting a little hot under the collar and the employee walking out. In the unemployment context the hearings officer might consider the employer as being the cause of the "quit" and grant compensation, but the rules are different there than constructive discharge in court. In the latter context a charge will only be successful if the conduct was so abusive that the average employee would quit. If the court would rule that this person quit because it was abusive to her, but others wouldn't react the same way, it wouldn't be successful.

lnelson · July 2005

Don -
This has NEVER happened before so in my case it would be a one and only time event. But my reaction (and I should have known better) was the unexpected hostility she portrayed to being asked questions and following it up by walking out of the discussion and job.

hrdir03nafcu · July 2005

Lisa:

If we're looking only at the immediate facts that you cite here, I would agree with the majority of respondents that this person quit (constructively quit, if not explicitly).

But I would offer a broader perspective: from the scene you describe, it sounds like there must be some history that led up to the final "blowup"? If this angry scene just came out of nowhere, then this person must be a wacko, and you're well rid of them... a pretty clear case of someone who walked out in a tantrum-- i.e., quit. But if there's a history of antagonism between the former EE and yourself/others, then I think the real answer to the question of whether this was quitting on their part, or constructive discharge on yours, probably lies in the facts of the history that led up to it.

lnelson · July 2005

You bring up good points - this ee had been with the company for approx 9 yrs very tight knit office atmoshpere. But I do not believe her actions were totally based on work related issues.
She wanted to be in charge of something and I guess when I stepped in to question her decisions she blew up. Frustration probably but MOST people would have asked questions when taking on a new project.

As far as frustration who hasn't been frustrated at work but packing up your things and walking out, you right more to this than maybe I know.

Nevada · July 2005

I call it LUCKY!! Hurry up and give her the check.

lnelson · July 2005

Well I just got the UI form and it stated she was fired by me. I am disputing this claim.

This has been a terrible week for all of us here. One of our employees was killed in a car accident over the weekend. He was driving home when a car going the other direction lost control and landed on his car. Everyone is in a state of shock and horror.

He will be missed by all.

LISA x:-(

System · July 2005

Lisa,

Depending on your workforce, sometimes losing a co-worker is like losing a family member. People reflect on the worker and his family and are burdened with grief and shock. Call your EAP. Talk to someone yourself first then let them help your workforce through it. We've lost two employees and one of our subcontractors was killed on the job. If your EAP is worth anything at all, your employees will appreciate it and your managers will understand more about what to expect over the next few days.

E Wart · July 2005

Were there any witnesses?
Make sure you retain what you were discussing with her and why and document the discussion. Have there been any instances before this?
Make sure you let the hearing officer know that you never told/asked her to leave and document when you called and what was left on message and what was said. I would say it was self termination/resignation. She is the one that made the decision to walk out. If she hadn't she would still be employed today.
Will depend upon the hearing officer and what they believe. We lost one this week that employee assumed things and left, told the hearing officer that her hours were cut and she was abused by supv. and won. Not the case at all but can't prove it.
E Wart

What would you call it...

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