Employer, Illegals Busted
LivindonSouth
1,358 Posts
Northrup Grumman Shipyards, Pascagoula, MS, yesterday, June 1, 27 illegals working for a defense department subcontractor. This one will roll out interestingly. I wonder if the new DHS & Justice Department's "Wal-Mart Rule" will apply.
This would not have happened had their supervisor been required to speak Spanish.
This would not have happened had their supervisor been required to speak Spanish.
Comments
I'm certain they all have blessed SAVE BASIC PILOT confirmation from our governemnt that they are OK to proceed with employment action.
Gene
Here's an excerpt from a recent newspaper article in the Courier-Journal (Louisville, KY) talking about Tyson Foods' alleged exploiting of the many known vulnerabilities of Save Basic Pilot:
"Tyson, like most meat processors, uses the DHS' Basic Pilot program to verify the right to work of newly hired workers- employers submit the A-numbers of newly hired non-US citizens to DHS for verification. However, the government alleges that "Tyson exploits known vulnerabilities in the system to gain false employment authorizations".
>vulnerabilities exploitation'? Don't we do that
>every day?
Congratulations! That little comment just earned you an honorary lifetime membership in Pork's elite "Anti-Government Infidel Club". By the way, I became charter member the day I denounced his pride and joy.
However, without the facts of what really happened does not give you the right to claim they are guilty and that all meat processors are guilty.
Do you know for certain that the MOU and the SAVE system was used to hire and validate new employees? NO, you do not, so you should again "sit on the side lines" and let their situation unfold with facts of "WRONG DOINGs".
All you know, as fact is that: there is or may be an investigation and once completed the evil ones will be discovered and appropriately disciplined, if they have abused the system. That does not make the SAVE Program "flawed". It, just may be, that those individuals, who you make guilty as "illegal immigrants" and without authorization for employment were actually reviewed by the SAVE PROGRAM and an "employment authorized" document would be on site and will be provided to the investigators. From those documents and on-line actions for verification, the truth and facts will be discovered.
If it is fact that the employer violated their MOU and used the SAVE System improperly, then the employer should be punished, severly, but even that does not make the system "FLAWED" such that the PROGRAM is a failure.
We now have 9 new hires and each has a document indicating the appropriate steps taken to close their verification of their right to work in our country. If these documents are, fraudulently, achieved, then the documents will help to send the evil ones to jail. However, if the documents are provided to the investigators and they are proof that the employer did it right, like this company has done with the last 9 employees, Tyson Foods will be protected from any allegations of illegal activities in their hiring process. It will be the USCIS's "FLAWED" SAVED SYSTEM that would be found at fault.
Have a nice day.
PORK
Your tirade above is just another example of how convoluted your thinking has become. Please, please, I beg you to separate all of the emotional and trivial stuff and focus, try to focus on the following points:
-The SAVE Pilot has several flaws. That's a statement of fact. I have discovered them first hand, others have reported them and DHS acknowledges them.
-If I, you, or anyone else, relies on these known flaws to get a silly document print-out saying "EMPLOYMENT AUTHORIZED" it does not change the fact that you still have an illegal in your employ and you are breaking the law. All of the MOU's, SAVE systems, etc in the world will not protect you.
I've tried to be reasonable with you Pork, but you make it impossible. Good riddance.
Gene
This SAVE PROGRAM is not going to go away and it is only going to get better.
Those of us who take the opportunity to verify the I-9 data through the use of SAVE will accomplish two very important things.
1) we will have appropriate documentation attached to our hiring actions for defense of "wrongful hiring practices", thus putting people authorized to work on-board for the economic value of all concerned.
2) we will provide NOTICE to those who carry illegal documents and present them IAW the I-9 procedures as required, that this company checks the presented documents and that we will not be a place of employment for them.
I hope this helps you to understand more clearly the real value, regardless of your personal experiences, of SAVE. I ask you one simple thing, what do you propose as cheaper, faster, and more accurate than 100% success for those of us using the SAVE system?
PORK
If the SAVE allows you the false sense of security to continue employing a largely illegal workforce with mickey-mouse I-551's that cannot pass visual inspection and SSN cards with misspelled words on the back then by all means, continue.
Now, I suggest you go read the post by VPHR, which, in my opinion, provides the best and most accurate snapshot of what really drives this. Then, hopefully you will see that SAVE will never roll-out as a mandatory deal. You are delusional if you believe that. Besides, it has so many flaws that it will only continue to be exploited.
New challenge to you: All expense paid trip to Nashville, with a 3rd party auditor of your own choosing, to witness, first hand, the various tests of the SAVE pilot which I have conducted. We'll report to the forum after that.
You backed down from my last challenge. Are you finally going to face the music or are you going to continue to hide behind useless diatribe and hog manure?
This will be done in self defense as Spansih becomes the default language in all of our documents, ballots, election campaign material, software (?), etc.
I still think we should just go ahead and annex, uh - I mean, invite all the countries down to the Panama canal to join the North American Union. Canada should be invited to join also.
All that merger and acquisition business going on in the business world is a good model. Just because the EU can't put their superpower together does not mean we should not try.
Yes, language barriers, but we obviously have to overcome them anyway.
In addition, my best French comes out when my frustration with Spanish is high (close enough for desperation communication). Yes, taking Spanish is on my "to do" list, but more to understand the jokes and conversations of my co-workers - which I am assured will not be taught in any Spanish class!
As an alternative, you can ask pOrk to send you some of his dictionaries he uses at the remote hog houses.
The solution to our dilemma is not a folksy stroll across the local oak-shaded campus to the room where they're holding the Spanish class and serving tacos and tequila. Wake up and smell the peyote!
I think we will wait u ntil something better comes along or as some of you guys and gals said take Spanish classes x:D
JG
Stick around for the show, I promise it will be worth at least the price of admission.
I activated our agreement in May 2005; we have found zero issues with the program, excluding one which has been over come by my education and assistance from the staff of SAVE.
Did you attempt to seek correction of your concerns with the staff of the SAVE program? I did and it has become very easy to operate the system. We are now in 100% verification of all I-9 information of all of our "new hires". It has been easy and well worth the effort to get it right. I have for years felt the I-9 was a political enemy of the employer; I now have come to realize the full value of the I-9 and the potential worth in helping our country identify who in our country are authorized to work and who are here but not authorized to work.
I read an article yesterday that published a new figure of 21.6 million foreign nationals in our country and employed. That is double the 11.6 (estimated) million of illegals in our country who have come for the most part to work.
As written above (by PORK) the SAVE program provides an employer an opportunity to begin the weeding out process (of those authorized to work and those that are not authorized) and the correction of US Citizen mis-matched information in the SSA, IRS, and DHS data banks. Additionally, it allows the employer to have documentation in the I-9 file in the HR office, which will help the employer defend any allegation of wrong hiring practices involving the I-9 process.
I have chosen the path of a conservative and believing HR to cover my path of enrollments/hiring practice with the additional I-9 documentation. Which, I also believe M. L. Smith's, 10 DANGER ZONES FOR SUBVISORS, recommends and teaches. I would rather have documentation rather than no documentation to defend our hiring practices.
Most importantly, is the fact that the potential hiring of an illegal immigrant goes away because of the known fact that this company verifies the I-9 information.
It does not matter whether I can or can't based on the SSA program or the SAVE program verify the i-9 information. The illegal immigrant is no longer attempting to come our way. When they do we will be able to hire and terminate appropriately and without discriminating against anyone. The I-9 information does not seperate out or look at faces, it does put the potential employee's claims of "right to work" on the dotted line and that makes it easier for, we employers, to get it right!
Welcome to the FORUM and I hope you will reconsider and volunteer to re-open your save program. It works for us and this ole'HR man, who has a difficult time with user ID and password when not used often.
We wish all to have Blessed day.
PORK
You mention that you have zero issues with the program and you are 100% verification of all new hires? Well, that's the problem, we did too, until the SS mismatch letters started to roll in on all of the "100% people". Like the Alabama person above you posted, the new breed of illegals are not just using bogus numbers anymore, they are assuming identities.
I have to agree that this program is destined to collapse under its own political weight. There way too many interest groups profiting from this for anyone to really want to completely sever the flow.
JG
I CAPITALIZE SOME WORDS FOR PURPOSE OF IMPORTANCE AND BECAUSE MY LEFT LITTLE FINGER PUSHES THE CAPS LOCK BUTTON and I don't catch it before I hit the post button.
I suggested you open your email icon, so that, any member of the FORUM might respond to you directly rather than in the public domain of the FORUM. My e-mail icon is open and many of our forum members communicate with me for whatever reason. Use my ICON and send me a message off of the forum and I will establish a file in your name in which we can then discuss any thing you want.
And what is wrong with receiving a mis-match of the SSN? The process refers the individual to the SSA and a correction to the data bank is made and they return to you for a re-verification, which if accomplished, accordingly, will then provide you with an authorization to employ. The person either goes and gets the SSN data bank corrected or they never return. That situation was also true with the SSA test verification program in which we participate as the test employer in the state of Mississippi.
We had several of our employees, currently employed, with mis-match SSA/IRS data (US CITIZENS) and we helped them to get their data corrected. Gender codes, marriage names, and typo errors of numbers and other information where found and corrected.
We now have the SAVE program which has the incorporation of the SSA test program and the USCIS pilot program. We are no longer using the SSA test program, instead we are using the SAVE program for 100% of our new hires. It, too, gives approvals of the SSN and the USCIS data bank, which together the foreign national assuming a false ID will be caught.
I disagree that this program will be scraped. I could be wrong, but in the mean time this HR will continue to enjoy the processing and the control over I-9 data verified in person by this HR and with my signature on every one of them. I am proud of our governments program and its success that I have experienced over the last 10 enrollments.
Again, we have not enrolled a foreign national since the very first verification and he has been terminated based on the data and actions required by our MOU to complete a verification action.
The foreign nationals know now that this company has the tools to get it done, so they are not coming to us for employment. I will be more than happy to forward my rejects to your company for hiring actions since you are not using SAVE. I sent our first rejection to TN HR and I can add your company to my list of referrals.
I still encourage you and all other FORUM members to give SAVE another chance for I am not experiencing any unexpected results.
PORK
I've given wrong advice on this Forum and been corrected by others; Gene, I'm certain you've given advice that has been second-guessed by others, and PORK has given bad advice from time-to-time. Hell, even the Don has been corrected at times. I don't know PORK from the man in the moon, but I have no reason to think he's a sick individual. Let's not give new contributors the wrong impression. Just get back to giving professional advice and quit getting personal. We can strongly disagree with one another but do it in a decent, professional manner.
"Can't we all just get along?"
My two cents worth.
PORK
You are very right that the system allows you to hire illegals aliens and then they are caught by the system. The SAVE program then gives the employer the capability of suspending the employee in a "dignified and non-discrimination" process. The individual employee/person is sent to the SSA and/or the USCIS for correction of the data bank. It is not a difficult procedure at all and it works. The system is clean, dignified, and extremely, helpful to us.
MY first verification was one of those situations, and the rest have been US Citizens with their proper documents. The first "request for verification" is no longer employed with this company based on our "attendance policy", termination was not based on any false or discriminating reason. He just did not come back!
It is just that simple and the facts are there. You are bent on putting the SAVE program down on the FORUM and your attacks of my words do not give credit to your obvious lack of sense/understanding of the importance and value of a means of verifying our HR work in the I-9 arena.
You want sit on the side lines and enjoy my postings to HRs across this great nation. You called me on the telephone and I assisted you in getting on the system. The next morning you are on the FORUM slamming my updates and words to others. My words have been placed out there for other adults to read and use as they see fit. They are not out there to allow you to show your negative attitude for what it is. My e-mail icon is open for FORUM members to use and I have had many to write, but you need not because I want to see your words out here on the FORUM for everone to evaluate.
SAVE is here and it does work. It is hard to understand your intent and all of your hate! You say you "respect my experiences", then you cast "spittel" across the line in the sand, in your dreams of power. You push so hard, there must be a real personal concern for your hiring practices, but I can not help you. Why are you intimidated by the ability of SAVE to help stop your potential illegal hiring practices?
Otherwise, there is no reason for you to attack me in order to stop SAVE from its growth. I am not the owner or program manager, I am only a successful user of the SAVE program, it works for this company and this person. We are proactively taking steps to do our part in solving the 11.6 million illegal foreign worker issue, it is small but it is a start. We are no longer an employer for those not welcome to work in our company or country. Before the month of May, I could not write those words and be truthful. Before the month of May our government, who controls the I-9 process and actions, did not have for the employer, the means of policing our actions as it pertains to the I-9!
We have it now, and your words will not stop the forward progress of SAVE. You should write the President of these United States and tell him how much of a dis-service the SAVE program has become.
I have already done so, and I am proud of the US Government's action to clean up the mess that is out here where the rubber meets the road. My words were very supportive and thankful for the the administrations actions to move SAVE forward.
PORK
Gene
No Pork, I will not email you privately! There's a reason my email is not public. I do not want to be bothered. Your message was a little creepy. Why would you want to start a file on me.
Gene - Thanks, you're showing a lot of class.
PORK - You've made your point. Don't make me change my mind. Let's get on with life.
Have a great weekend.