When to Fire vs Letting the EE Resign

We had a situation last week that I want to get some feedback on. We recently found out that one of our counselors gave one of her clients, a teenager, some sample Zoloft pills. The client was currently taking Zoloft by a Psychiatrist so our employee thought it was okay. Our ee works PT at the hospital and told us she obtained them from a representative at the hospital. This is obvious grounds for termination. Her supervisor and mgr talked to her, and she admitted that she did give the client the pills. I told them that she would have to be let go, but we would give her the opportunity to resign so she would not have on her record that she was fired. She did agree to resign. When I told my boss that I gave her the option to resign, he asked me if I thought that was wise. I have done this in the past when I believe the ee will voluntarily resign. I knew this ee would because she knew her actions were wrong. She has had major boundary issues with clients in the past. I feel this helps us in case we are sued and fighting unemployment, even though I told her supv that she would not get unemployment either way because this is considered misconduct. What do you think?


Comments

  • 21 Comments sorted by Votes Date Added
  • It's not only misconduct; it's criminal misconduct, a felony. I will say without reservation that your letting her resign was the wrong thing to do. In fact, I can think of no reason for thinking it was the right thing to do. You also have an obligation, in my opinion, to your profession, your industry and your counterparts in that industry who may send routine employment verification requests to your facility in the future. Now those will not be completed with all honesty and the unconvicted felon will wind up in a similar job putting other children at risk. I'll shut up now.
  • I have to say that I agree completely with Don. This person did not deserve nor has the right to the option of resigning. At my organization, they are told what they have done is wrong and that we are terminating their employment.
  • I think you should have terminated her without options.
  • What would you think if it was your child that was given pills by that counselor?

    Talk about aiding and abetting.....


  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 04-25-05 AT 10:14AM (CST)[/font][br][br]I've thought more about this and am of the opinion that she should lose her professional license. And so should the person at the other facility who gave the samples to her. You may want to check with your own top management and the Department of Human Services or Attorney General's office in your state. You my find that you are legally obligated to report the conduct or risk losing your own job. In this state, what she did was a violation of multiple laws and the facility would have a legal obligation to report it to the state.

    Not that this additional information is needed to support my feelings; but, I googled Zoloft and read the literature about it being one of the most widely prescribed medications for depression. The warnings discussed the rise in the incidence of teenage suicide cautionary alerts and the fact that (naturally) the medication comes in a variety of strengths which could affect the patients reaction to it. And of course it must be monitored closely by the prescribing physician psychiatrist.

    My angst keeps rising over this. Do you also realize your facility could lose not only it's license to operate, but it's ownership might change with the proper attorneys involved.
  • I'll take it one step further. You should be terminated for exercising poor and negligent judgement in giving this employee an option to resign.

    Gene


  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 04-25-05 AT 10:51AM (CST)[/font][br][br]Sorry, GLC, but I'll have to join in beating you up. No option to quit should have been offered. This was clearly a time for termination. I think Don has a point about it being reported to the authorities. As far as it not being on her record, I would want it on her record so that the next HR person who interviews her for a job knows what to look out for. Giving prescription drugs to anyone, no matter what the age, is illegal period,unless she is a licensed physician. If I were the parent of the child in question I would be in your office right now.
  • You had made the decision to terminate, I believe once that decision is made, you need to follow through. I never agree to let someone resign if the discharge decision has been made.

    I agree with the others, this was a lapse in good judgement. As a counselor, she jeapordized the professional relationship with her client, put the teen's health at risk, etc. This needs to be reported, as The Don said, it is a felony. She needs to lose her license. I would contact the appropriate authorities to set the record straight. Do not delay, you only increase the liability to your employer, and I would say to you as well. We make decisions all the time to help people, but you cannot cover up this person's actions.
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 04-25-05 AT 11:26AM (CST)[/font][br][br]You now know we HR forumites can not stress how unwise it was for you to "sanction" the employee's illegal actions by allowing her to resign rather than fire and report her to the authorities. It sounds as if she had no rights to the sample drugs in the first place, however, she showed MONUMENTAL errors in judgement by giving a teenager Zoloft. Even laymen know of the current questions about this drug and psychotic behavior.

    It was not appropriate on your part to consider unemployment compensation issues when the health and life of a patient was jeopardized by this person. Please make amends by doing the right thing now.
  • Some of these might as well be finished by the time west-coasters show up, but agree with every one else.
  • G3: You need to learn the art of insomnia, then you could be in your jammies posting right along with the rest of the country. x:-)
  • I must concur with all of the above, and why wasn't this EE let go earlier for the "major boundary issues" you mentioned?
  • I agree with the others. This is a very serious criminal matter, that needs to be reported at once.

    I would contact legal council at once.
  • I thought this was a forum where we could discuss HR matters professionally. I really don't need to be told that I should be fired. I talked to our attorney about this after being beat up by you guys. They were okay with my decision. I have done more good for this company than you all will ever know. The boundary issues that the employee has had in past has not been to this level. She was a fairly new employee so we felt with continued training and supervision that things would improve. She does not have a license, just a masters. I also found out that the client is not a minor but 19. We talked to the Board in her field, but since she does not have a license, there is nothing they can do. The ee knew the bad mistake that she made, and I was trying to help her out by allowing her to resign. Our attorneys have said that we have no affirmative obligation to report this to law enforcement. CPS would handle it from here. They also strongly agreed that I should follow our normal policy on giving dates of employment and position. I HAVE READ ALL THE POSTS AND HEAR YOU. I do not need any further belittling so if you wish to comment without attacking me personally, feel free.
  • Dear Mr or Ms GLC:

    How else were we to respond to your actions but personally?? You were not talking about someone alse but about yourself.

    You call it belittling and attacking. I wish I had the support and knowledge back when I made mistakes.

    In HR, you have got to grow a thicker skin. We are not here to throw rocks at you. We give our opionions and sometimes they are not sofened with mediocre words.
  • GLC: After you laid out the scenario, your one and only question was, "What do you think?". I didn't understand that you wanted 'what we think' tempered with kindness and gentility. One thing for sure, when you boil down all the responses to an average, I think you are judged as having handled it wrongly. And that's what you asked for, 'what we think'.

    I don't trust the remark from your attorney that you have no obligation under state law to report. Maybe they are right, but, if it were me, I would call child protective services and the state AG and be sure. The attorney works for his client, your facility. They want this thing to quickly vanish and go away entirely. The attorney is not at all interested in your reporting this to an oversight agency or investigatory board.

    Good luck with this. x:-)
  • Don - you raise a good point; 'the atty works for his client - your facility.' That is precisely the same entity GLC works for - and while we may have some moral and ethical 'obligations' to others/strangers/whatever, we often do not have a commensurate legal obligation. One may, with legal impunity, stand by the edge of a pool and watch someone else drown without lifting a finger. Having done so creates no legal liability whatsoever. Sometimes, we don't do things we 'should' for as simple a reason as we don't want to call attention to ourselves, invite scrutiny, 'get involved' and end up defending ourselves for doing what we thought was probably the right thing at the time. It's a sad fact of our society - not right maybe, but a fact novertheless. Now, absent a legal responsibility to report or protect someone, I think any entity would be wise, to at least examine the ramifications of taking additional measures, and determine what is the best interests - both short and long term - of the entity we represent. Some things are important enough to take further, consequences be damned; some not. But reaction, as opposed to considered action, rerely serves us, or our employers well.
    Someone also suggested that 'once the decision is made to discharge, I never let them resigh.' Well, if the decision is done with the benefit of all the facts, then ok. But, at least in my experience, facts have a way of changing from time to time, and I am never so sure of myself that a reconsideration might not be appropriate if something changes. Our job is to protect our employer while being as fair as possible to our ees. To me, that means that even a decision made, -but not executed - can be reviewed, and may be subject to change. Just my thoughts for consideration.
    GLC: you took some hits, maybe a little rougher than necessary, but you gotta admire the passion and sincerety of the views and opinions expressed. By putting our thoughts out there, they become fair game, and we learn from our own, and others mistakes.
  • Good commentary. However, regardless of one's indebtedness and loyalty to one's employer, one also has some sort of obligation to self and family to protect one's own ass by finding out what legal ramifications might exist and what, if any, consequences there might be hiding behind the bush for not following the law.

    As I said earlier, in this and several states that I know of, any employee of a facility caring for or providing services to children or the infirm has a legal obligation to report any incident of abuse to those wards/patients/clients. People go to jail for not doing so. I do not think I would protect my employer at the cost of personal incarceration.
  • GLC: You might choose to activate your e-mail address for the forum. I clicked on the letter/icon to send you a personal message, but it was "inactive" so I could not write you a "thank you" for taking the heat off of me. we all make good and poor jusdgement calls from time to time, you must be the one to decide which will apply to your inquiry. This is a forum, where we do write and express openly, and sometimes we take some heat for the words, but not to worry for it is all good in a professional sense. You are free to make you own experiences pay off for you and you alone. I for one do believe in being up front and honest with our actions regardless of what others may think or judge. If you choose to learn from the words written then this forum has worked for you and for us. we are also in the learning mode, some more than others and some more often than others.

    Your day has been Blessed as you have just written, we have confirmed what you already knew to be the right thing to have done in your particular inquiry and question of "what do you think?".

    PORK
  • While some of the posters can be blunt when posting their opinions, don't take it personally. After all, none of them know you personally, so it cannot possibly be personal. Seek the input, most of which is pretty good, then cull out what you want to and keep what you want to, and let the rest roll off.
  • If your feelings were hurt by my post, please accept my apology. It's just that I thought you wanted the feedback. Believe me, none of us know it all, but all of us are willing to share what we do know.
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