Grievance Issue - Your thoughts

njjel · June 2004

We don't get many of these so I'm asking for input:

A supervisor wrote up an ee for insubordination. The ee was asked to cover the front desk and she advised the supervisor in a not so pleasant tone that she had just gotten in and needed some time to get herself together as she had had a sleepless night. The supervisor again asked her to cover the front and the ee retorted "I can't deal with you now. Do whatever you have to do". Thus the write-up.

The ee grieved the write-up stating that she hadn't refused to cover the front, but had asked for time to do so as she wasn't feeling well. She further stated the supervisor made an issue of this infront of her co-workers and that there were others who could have covered the front but she singles her out all the time to do this. She says she was not insubordinate because she didn't refuse to cover the front desk, just asked for more time.

Your thoughts please.

HR in CA · June 2004

Here's my take...

The employee arrived at work not intending to go right to work, because she needed to pull herself together. Her response to the supervisor's response got her the write up. "I can't deal with you now, do whatever you have to do." Wow that sounds like insubordination to me.

As far as the employee stating she is singled out, it's the supervisor's responsibility to staff his/her department. There are probably reasons whay the others are not asked to cover the phones such as work loads, ability to use the phone system, not good on the phones, etc.

Lastly as far as making an issue in front of staff, that could have been handled better. But the initial response of the employee to the request sure could have handled better.

The write up seems appropriate to me.

njjel · June 2004

What suggestions do you have to prevent the grievance from going to arbitration?

HR in CA · June 2004

Are you union? If so, there might be nothing you can do.

As a result of the write up, what happens to the employee? Suspension? Not able to bid on open jobs? Besides bringing her bad additude to her attention, what happens to her as a result of the write up?

jfletcher · June 2004

Maybe deal with the issue from an unprofessional conduct view, by the way she responded to the supervisor. Why is there an issue with the supervisor now instead of in the past when she probably should have made mention of this issue of unfair treatment to those on high? Sounds like she is trying to shift the blame for her less than friendly attitude. I've never been a fan of "insubordination" as a reason, look a little further in and see what the action was that was the problem instead of usuing a blanket term. Hope this helps

Crout · June 2004

Is it a Union, or non-Union environment? If there's a Union involved, her argument may have some "legs," so to speak. Insubordination is usually a stated intent to refuse a work assignment, coupled with actually refusing to do the work. In other words, if she said no, but then did the job anyway it wouldn't be insubordination. If there's a union at the grievance meeting they are going to argue that she did not technically refuse, and was intending to do the assignment. In that case it might be safer to anticipate their argument and just write her up for unprofessional conduct, or an inappropriate response to supervision. In a non-union environment you usually don't have to walk such a fine technical line in how your rationale is constructed. It would be enough that she cocked off to her supervisor for no reason.

njjel · June 2004

Yes we are union (unfortunately). I can see where management could drop the refusal to cover the desk and keep the inappropriate response part. But I doubt the union will even settle for that as their counter to that has been that the supervisor was rude to her when she told her to cover the front desk. (we are just a step one of the process) Do you other union formites see the union taking this to arbitration if we offer to drop the refusal part and keep the inappropriate response?

Don D · June 2004

I came from a union environment. I would not drop anything at this point. Proceed with what you have done, let it be bounced up another notch or two and then re-evaluate. The more often you cave at step one, the more it invigorates them to continue these antics.

Balloonman · June 2004

Don is right.........don't back down at all now........u always can later.
My $0.02 worth!
DJ The Balloonman

Kathie0554 · June 2004

It's insubordination when the following occurs (in a union enviroment)..."Sally you have to work the front desk. Sally: "I have to ...(whatever) first" Supv: "If you don't cover the front desk right now, then I'm going to write you up" Sally: "I have to do (whatever) first" Supv: You will be written up for this.

The ee has to know the consequences of refusing an order or delaying an order from mgmt. (at least here in this union enviroment)in order to get through a grievance process. However, here we would write up the ee for rudeness. I agree with Don though, let it bump up to 3rd step, then re-evaluate.

Crout · June 2004

See, my thing is that if you let it get bumped up a notch or two and you re-evaluate at that point the Union wins. But as Don said, and I agree, you can't cave in at Stage 1. So I would advise to either write her up for something that WILL stick (unprofessionalism or rudeness) or drop the issue entirely. What level of discipline are we talking about? If it's a Verbal Warning or something similar, the Union will not spend the money to go to Arbitration. What do your witnesses say? Was the supervisor rude to her? If he/she was a jerk to begin with, I would consider putting this one behind me and counseling the supervisor.

njjel · June 2004

We have Step One and Step Two and then it goes to Arbitration. She claims (and the supervisor denies) that the supervisor was rude to her and made an issue of this in front of other co-workers. This is a Written Warning only. We are not aware of who the witnesses were. It is possible that the supervisor was "strong" in her request for her to take the front desk - I'm not sure about rude.

Beave · June 2004

Ready to work is ready to work, not "give me five or ten minutes to make myself pretty so I can answer the phone". It seems to me that the EMPLOYEE is the one that made an issue of it when she refused a managers directive. What on earth was she thinking - that she, the employee was the one calling the shots. I would have EXPECTED the supervisor to hold strong - to many managers aren't & that may be why some employees act this way towards them. Maybe it's just my mood this morning but I would hold very tight on this one. Maybe next time she will follow a directive.

mwild31 · June 2004

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 06-28-04 AT 04:07PM (CST)[/font][br][br]I thank God every single day that I don't work in an union environment, but I sure appreciate those of you who do. Honestly, when an ee comes into work, isn't there an expectation that once they come in the door, put their things down, they are there to work and not in need of "some time to get herself together as she had had a sleepless night." Isn't that what the ride to work is all about or better yet, the morning ritual of bathing is all about? I would think that rudeness could possibly be argued about as well with the ee saying she responded as she did because the supervisor embarrassed her in front of co-workers, etc. Does anything in your policies deal with the ee being available and prepared to work when their shift begins? Seems reasonable to me that if she wasn't, then you don't have to go the potentially tougher route of insubordination, but instead the write up for not being prepared and available to work when her shift began. Just an idea...

Elle · June 2004

I agree with mwild31, an ee needs to be ready at the appointed starting time to work. I have that written in my handbook, "physically and mentally prepared to begin work." You should think about adding to yours if you don't have it already.

Hunter1 · June 2004

Even in a relatively simple situation, there are always so many variables: Was it actually 'starting time' when the supervisor gave the order? Was there rudeness involved? Have there been previous problems? Were there actually witnesses?

Do a thorough investigation, and decide now what your response is going to be all the way through arbitration. I do not agree with the idea of allowing the issue to go up the grievance procedure a couple of steps (You've only got two, anyway). Our employees know that I approve ALL answers to grievances at all steps, and if we deny a grievance at step one, they understand that I'm willing to go to arbitration with it, barring some new information coming to light further along in the process. If we were wrong, we say so at step one. It adds credence to the process, and employees don't test us very often.

LindaS · June 2004

I would not back down on this. I am in a union environment and it seems that employees believe that they can talk any way they want to management and that the union will fight for them, right or wrong.

If the conversation had ended with, "I need a little time to get ready", then I think a write-up would have been excessive. The added, "I can't deal with you right now..." was over the line and the employee should be made responsible for this.

Before answering the grievance, find out who the co-workers were and complete an investigation. If the results show as you stated above, I would answer the grievance in that manner and let it go to the next step.

I agree with Don in that this situation, unless your investigation provides additional information that would make you question the supervisor's motives, should not be dropped at this step.

njjel · June 2004

The supervisor states that she was not rude nor demanding and the ee states that she was. There are no witnesses that we are aware of so it's a she said, she said deal.

Thanks everyone for your input on this!

ritaanz · June 2004

If there are no witnesses, who were the co-workers that she claims were present? Were they deaf?

njjel · June 2004

Either that or invisible as non have admitted/come forward that they heard the incident.

Don D · June 2004

The supervisor's behavior is not the primary focus. It's entirely secondary. That's the part that may be 'he said she said'. The employee's behavior seems not to be in question. She flat refused a specific order by saying "I can't deal with you right now." Although you may not be able to prove or disprove the claim of rudeness, you must deal with the insubordinate behavior.

Crout · June 2004

If there were no witnesses and she isn't being fired then let it go to Stage 2 and then deny the Grievance. There's no way a social services union is going to spend the money to take a Written Warning to Arbitration.

njjel · June 2004

I hope you are correct because that is where it is going! :-) Wish us luck. Like I said we don't get many of these here. Thank goodness.

Hunter1 · June 2004

I don't know what kind of unions you deal with in PA, but in this part of the country, if the employee presses the issue, the union will definitely go to arbitration.

njjel · June 2004

Even for something as minor as a 1st written warning?

Don D · June 2004

Maybe cheesheads would take something like that to arbitration. The environments I've been in, the employee/grievant has nothing to say about whether or not the local presses to arbitration.

Balloonman · June 2004

Okay,
Listen, if there are witnesses they will be trotted out at the first meeting with the union. But use this knuckle heads own stupidity against them. When you meet, get them to discuss everything from the beginning, you may even insuate that in addition to the grievance process you want to know how the supervisor handled themselves. Tell the supervisor you are going to do this......... I will be you a dollar, the employee will get rolling saying how she was not ready to work (rule violation) how she said she would not deal with him now (insurbordiantion or rudeness) and will hang themselves. If the supervisor became stern with them after they were not ready to work, who cares.

My $0.02 worth!
DJ The Balloonman

BigBus · June 2004

We have two unions here and get grievances all the time. Let them take it all the way up. If the supervisor feels she was right, then go for it. If the union wants to spend the money for arbitration, let them. Your big mistake is to give into them on small matters like this.

Whatever · June 2004

I find it hard to believe the union would want to go to arbitration over this. We currently have an ee who was suspended three days and filed a grievance. The union wants us to "compromise" (in parenthesis because the union's idea of compromise is that we pay the ee for the 3 days). However, the union has also told us they really don't want to go to arbitration. In time, I think this will fade away. I suspect that in time, your grievance will fade away.

Crout · July 2004

I honestly don't think that "fading away" is the answer. Rather, you simply hear the Grievance, make a good faith effort to obtain all relevant evidence, then make the decision to sustain it or deny it. If your evidence is solid and your decision is sound, then I don't think that the union will waste resources on Arbitration. The main thing is, don't get paralyzed by the specter of Arbitration.

WT · July 2004

Responses have been all over the map on this so let me add to the confusion. The issue of taking an employee to task in front of others may have some validity, but the employee chose the time and place to pick the fight. The supervisor did not plan a reprimand but was just trying to assign work. "I can't deal with you and do what you need to do" are most certainly code words meaning the employee refuses to take orders and does not think the supervisor can make it stick. If the union backs you up on this one, you are one giant step forward on the path to giving over control of the work place to the employees.

Never let the fear or cost of arbitration rule your actions. Employers do win at arbitration much to the surprise of the complaining employees. The bottom line is that you have to have the authority to manage and direct the work force. Never give that up.

Grievance Issue - Your thoughts

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