Sexual Harassment

MarcS · June 2004

Ok everyone, I have a weird scenario. We have an employee who isa from another country. Every day at lunch recently, in our small cafeteria, he apparently unzips his zipper. He does this no matter who is or is not around. Some of the female employees have complained of being uncomfortable with this. There has been no report of any other odd behavior or even touching. The problem I have is, what if this is some odd custom or accepted behavior in his country, such as if we were to unbuckle a belt or top button on your pants when you are full. Management obviously will counsel him in not doing this again, but can we suspend him for this behavior? He will no doubt claim it to be an innocent act with no harassment intended. I am not sure if it even rises to the level of a Title VII claim. We do not have a hard fast rule on this, but would like to set a clear message that this is unacceptable. Some of management want to counsel only, others suggest suspension for a day or two without pay. Any thoughts?

Gillian3 · June 2004

Since you don't know why this is occuring and haven't asked the employee it is premature to discipline in any way. You need to ask him why he is doing this first, then tell him that it is not appropriate because -----. I doubt that it has anything to do with his coming from another country, but if it does, tell him that in our culture is different and he shouldn't do it. This is probably a counseling issue at this point.

Pork · June 2004

I vote for asking first before we jump into discipline!

PORK

Don D · June 2004

Here's what I think I'd do. You said 'apparently' unzips his pants. What's up with 'apparently'? Sit in the cafeteria and watch him for a couple of days to satisfy yourself that he is doing what he was reported to have done. This eliminates the 'he said - she said'. If he does in fact do that, watch what happens next. That's the key. What does he do next? Does he look around for acceptance? Does he appear to be loosening his belt? Is he headed for the John? Is he flatulating and allowing a convenient escape for the gas?

If he does do this, have him accompany you to your office and ask simple questions: Why do you unzip your trousers after you eat? Do you understand that this can make people uncomfortable? Do you understand that we prohibit that conduct? Depending on his answers, consider asking, "Do you understand that your employment here is terminated immediately?

PS: I notice you're a new poster. Are you sure you are serious?

lnelson · June 2004

Don D brings up some good points about observing the supposed behavior. Once you have observed and confirmed behavior I would speak with the ee and instruct to discontinue the practice or be prepared to receive disciplinary action up to termination.

Lisa

MarcS · June 2004

don, thanks for the input. actually i'm not a new poster, i just haven't posted often. i think you are focusig too narrowly on my choice of words. i said apparently only because i mysel did not view this behavior. the behavior is confirmed by three separate employees on different occassions. our cafeteria is too small for me to sit and observe. assuch, i'll throw caution to the wind and believe he is doing this. i take it from your reply you think we should terminate him. i like the hard lied questions, i"ll try that instead.

p.s. i wish i wasn't serious about this, but it did happen.

MarcS · June 2004

thanks everyone. i think the consensus then is to go with some questions to the employee and basically counsel or give a warning to deter the behavior. it was just so outrageous of a claim, i just can't believe someone would do such a thing. i think my partners just wanted to send a very clear message with a suspension. however, i think some questioning and a warning is due. thanks again.

Don D · June 2004

You'll 'throw caution to the wind and believe he is doing it"? What the hell kind of serious investigation is that? "It was just so outrageous a claim you could not believe he would do that?" An HR professional does not form this type of opinion without serious investigation. Investigations lead to conclusions. You don't form conclusions with any other foundation. You're the HR professional and you're following the lead of 'your partners'? This whole thing is so totally disjointed as to be unbelievable. You go from 2 posts to 5 posts yet none of them are revealed on a search. Pardon my doubt. I'm just the chief 'Doubting Thomas' around these parts. We'll be calling this one 'The Case Of The Unzipped Foreigner'.

ray a · June 2004

Don, I see MarcS is from Florida. Sonny is from FL, too. Maybe MarcS is a pseudonym that Sonny uses when she is off her meds.

Sonny, are you there?

sonny · June 2004

I'm here, but on my meds. . ain't me. Agree with those who would talk to the employee.

Tish · June 2004

People, People - lets play nice!!!

Tammy Binford · June 2004

>People, People - lets play nice!!!

I agree. I've deleted a few posts that were just personal attacks.

Tammy Binford
Editor, M. Lee Smith Publishers

smaces_twin · June 2004

This forum is not a place of personal attacks. I'm not going to get into the argument of who started what, my assumption is that it started in post 10 because it's gone. This has turned into a middle school pissing contest. Give it a rest.

Don D · June 2004

What we probably need is for the Real SMace to step forward or his evil alter-ego Aluminumboy. Now there's a guy who can't be 'outpissed'.

Balloonman · June 2004

Hey where did my post go!?
My $0.02 worth!
DJ The Balloonman

Tammy Binford · June 2004

I don't know where your posts went. I deleted a few posts this morning but none were yours. Please post them again.

Tammy Binford
Editor, M. Lee Smith Publishers

Balloonman · June 2004

Tammy are you censoring my posts? I would like to know why since you have now removed two posts!
My $0.02 worth!
DJ The Balloonman

AJ SPHR · June 2004

MarcS, I agree with others - don't assume, but instead conduct a thorough investigation. The results of the investigation will determine the best course of action. If this is the first time it's happened, then immediate termination may not be appropriate at this time.

I'm curious to find out why the guy's doing it (if he is!), so please come back and let us know the results of your investigation!

ritaanz · June 2004

I will ASSUME that your post is genuine. How small of a lunchroom can it be not to allow you to sit down and drink a soda?

I ASSUME you are a neophyte to HR arena. Never, never jump to a conclusion without anything more than he said...she said... If you do not have the "cheek" to experience this phenomenon yourself, have one of your partners observe.

If all proves to be true, then it is time to question the fellow and then determine the next step.

If after questioning and receiving an answer, you are still in a quandry, write us again.

I wonder, will we hear from you again?

marc · June 2004

It looks like I am going to have to re-establish my winter routine. I get to work very early and often am on time to get in on the Eastern Time Zone avalanche of posts. Coming in a little later to accomodate my exercise routine causes me to miss some of the good stuff.

But to the topic at hand, I agree that there is nothing like the first hand evidence you get when observing things for yourself, as Don said, conducting an investigation is one of the duties of an HR professional. I say duty because there is an obligation to both the company and the employee that can have serious ramifications for both.

Accepting the comments of other employees forms a basis for starting the investigation, not for making conclusions. Who knows, perhaps the EEs who complained are notorious conspirators who are slowly weeding the foreigners out of your company? Probably not, but there is nothing to be lost by investigating, which should include a discussion with the EE regarding this alleged behavior.

Summary judgements can result in greater harm than the incident in question.

Remember the good old days when citizens could level a charge of practicing witchcraft and the trial consisted of dunking the accused in a pond. If they floated, they were witches and burned at the stake. If they drowned, the were assumed innocent and cleared of the charges.

I am not sure there are any parallels here, but I like the story.

POPEYE · June 2004

Man!! I only got to print out a couple of the good posts. I was in the process of creating one of the all-time best selling novels and now my source is gone. Can you imagine the intrigue? This guy from Fl attacking someone from MS who has a friend in NY who.............Oh well, guess I'll just keep looking for other material.

MarcS · June 2004

I wanted to follow up on some of the recent posts. I think the consensus was good, investigate then decide. What I was attempting to do, which has been quite muddled in all of the responses, was find out what people would do if this happened in their employee. Maybe I did not make myself clear enough in my original post. I wanted to pose the question that if the facts were true, how would others handle the employee in terms of discipline, i.e a mere warning not to do it, suspension or termination (I personally feel this is too harsh). As such, there was never any doubt in my mind that an investigation would occur. The thing I think people have lost sight of, is the fact that trying to observe the behavior has no effect on whether it occurred in the past. Since I myself was not present to observe the behavior, management would have to decide who to believe, 3 employees who said separately on 3 different occassions that they observed the acts, or the employee who denies it. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 places the responsibility on management to address the problem. As such, if the employee does not do the act again (be it when I observe him or others observe him) this does not erase the fact that management received the complaints anbd is obligated to address the past issue. I am sorry a few people took it upon themselves to make a joke of this (I'll say for the 4th time that this is a real situation) and attack me personally when I was looking for suggestions. I am aware of my duties and responsibilites to investigate, that was not the point of the post, ht epoint was to jump ahead once the investigation was completed and pose a hypo as to how to handle the discipline side.

As an aside, our investigation revealed that the employee denied the act. He claimed he was loosening his belt buckle (contradicts what the witnesses said). He was advised not to do this in the cafeteria, but to do it before lunch when no one is around, if at all. He was warned.

I think the lesson I've learned here is that people have their own agendas. I'll avoid posting in the future since it appears that no one really wants to listen and assist.

ritaanz · June 2004

I resent your allegation that nobody wants to listen or assist. Clearly, a few of us did give you direction. It just may not have been what you expected.

It is your decision whether you post in the future or not. Why not provide a "Profile" and let us get to know you?

AJ SPHR · June 2004

Marc,
Thanks for the follow up. I think what's too difficult for any HR professional to do is to provide a clear-cut answer regarding a potential scenario, so that's why you got the tips about investigating first because it seemed to many of us that you were jumping the gun. Without knowing about the results of the investigation, it's hard to say, without being there in person, what action you should take. I'm glad you took the steps you did and addressed it promptly. That's always good and now you've laid the groundwork with the warning. Hopefully he's learned his lesson!

Please post again. Ignore anyone you think has their own agenda, but don't turn away from some valuable advice you'll receive from a variety of other posters. Be strong and fight back with more clarification or explanations, or simply ignore if you feel someone has their own agenda. Heavens, I've dealt with far worse in person - just the nature of the job!

Good luck!

MarcS · June 2004

Rita and AJ thanks. You gave good advice. A few others did as well. It was never my intention to mislead or offend anyone. I appreciate all of the suggestions. Hopefully if there is a next time scenario, my posting(s) can go smoother. Again, many thanks.

marc · June 2004

AJ, you are getting me confused. Surely you meant this last post for MarcS, the one with the really cool first name, and not just Marc. Oh wait, I don't capitalize my first letter on this forum.

Never mind. :-?

AJ SPHR · June 2004

marc of the no capitals, so sorry to confuse#-o . I will strive to be more diligent in naming posters in the future. In fact, I've just added it to one of my 2004 business plan goals. Whew, what an accomplishment that will be!:DD

Crout · June 2004

Looking back on the original post, I'm wondering how this rises to the level of Sexual Harrassment? It's obviously offensive behavior, but how is it Sexual Harrassment?

rad · June 2004

I was wondering the same thing but got so sidetracked by the hoopla I forgot to ask. If he was wagging his thing around I could see the problem. But undoing his zipper? Seems to me he's just inconsiderate, not a foreigner with a strange zipper custon or a sexual predator.

mcmel · June 2004

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 06-03-04 AT 03:49PM (CST)[/font][br][br]No matter the size of the lunchroom, if there was wagging going on, I would have made it a point to verify the problem myself. As a courtesy to the offended employees, of course.

attyinaz · June 2004

I have been practicing law in this area for over 20 years and I have seen just about every type of behavior in the workplace.

One of my favorite sayings when something bizarre happens that I must investigate:

"Truth is stranger than fiction!"

Sexual Harassment

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