Last night I was the first responder to give you more than a 'sound bite' as honest advice. You asked participants to tell you what they would do, given your scenario. That is precisely what I did.
You now say your intention was not to offend anyone. I for one am offended by the fact, if this is true, that you asked if Ray and I were "dating" and indicated we were "joined at the hip". I am also offended, if it is true, that you criticized Mississippi and the South and my number of posts. I am told you made those comments on this thread and that they have been removed by the administrator. If this is true, your claim that you intended to offend nobody is not truthful. And if these comments do accurately reflect what you said, I for one do not care if you post again or not. Good day and I hope your situation works out in the best interest of the company. x:-)
Don, to be quite honest, you took a serious matter and used it as a chance to ridcule. I think you took a matter i thought was serious and used it to question if i was being legit. It also was a big deal to you that i had less than the 6500 posts you had (i still don't see how you have time to work). anyway, my apology was directed to rita, not you (i meant what i said to you). anyway, thanks for the advice you gave and you need not respond to ANY posts i do in the future.
the question posed as to how this scenario even rises to the level of harassment, i agree, but in some circles it could have the makings of such a claim, especially it it were to continue and or be followed by other behavior.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 06-03-04 AT 01:26PM (CST)[/font][br][br]MarcS, If anything, you were the one who offended people with the comments Don mentioned and the comments about ray. This forum is a place for input........brutal honest input....... if you get your nose easily bent out of joint well sorry. I watched from the outside............ you did not handle this post/thread well. However this is a good bunch of folks, I am sure you will be given another shot. Don't be so jerky next time. As for his questioning if you and your scenario were legit, the reasoning behind this is that we sometimes get non HR folks on here, employees, unhappy looking for ammo...... One way to identify them is very few posts, asking questions that could guide one to proceed with legal action. If you look back objectively and from that perspective, you will understand where he was coming from. My $0.02 worth! DJ The Balloonman
BM, thanks for your reply. You certainly entitled to your opinion. I have no problem with anyone giving advice. I think you should take a look back at Don's post (i think it's number 7). He wasn't giving advice, he was mocking my scenario (the case of a zipper), he assumed i was making this stuff up, and he got into stuff about how many posts i made. you also didn't see the stuff that was deleted. i don't think that he was appropriate in some of the stuff he intitially said. To me, that was jerky. I also don't think you speak for everyone that viewed these posts.
Sorry MarcS, I have to support everything Balloonman had to say. This is a site for HR professionals to interact and behave professionally. To attack DonD as you did with the wording you did (which was deleated later) was truly uncalled for in this setting. What How you converse in your company or in a private e-mail between the two of you is one thing but this is a site for professionals in the field of HR - here to help one another with the multitude of issues we EACH are challanged with on a daily basis. If you post in the future, please keep in mind that we ARE here to assist one another, we are NOT here to attack you just because you may THINK we are. Have a nice day.
Look at #7 response. Also you didn't see what was deleted from them as well. I did not receive advice, i was attacked. Sorry you can't see the other side of things. LIke I said a zillion messages ago, I posted a serious matter and was attacked for it. I have no problem with advice, but I was asking about a potential discipline scenario, not what or how to investigate the matter. Remember Beave, there are 2 sides to every story.
Not mocking you, IMHO, but pointing out the issues that make one question the validity of your post. Well I was speaking for myself and being kind.......as I know they will pull an inappropriate post, like they did when you attacked ray. Oh, yeah you fail to mention that when you go at Don......... I am beginning to second guess my comment about giving you another chance........if you are offended and wish to leave the forum, good luck. xclap
Respectfully, I understand that there are two sides to every controversy but I did read the posts that were deleated and in what I read, YOU were the one to take the gloves off first & really let loose with some very uncalled for words. Just my opinion - respectfully presented. This is an impresive site attended by some VERY informed and respected professionals in the field of HR. Colorfull at times, but very usefull all the time. Thanks for contributing.
> We do not have a hard fast rule >on this, but would like to set a clear message >that this is unacceptable.
MarcS you stated you don't have a hard fast rule on this, I assume that means you do not have a anti-harrassment/anti-hostile work environment policy in place? If that's the case you may want to implement one.
Don't be so hard on the responses you got/get, we are all part of this diverse group of individuals with individual opinions and I opine that you jumped the gun and took offense where none was ment to be. You will find that there are times that we all agree to disagree and that is what keeps us in a job. If every issue was cut and dry then where would that leave the HR profession? Come back and see us some time and you'll find that this Forum is a great tool for the HR profession. OK James, I'll take another shirt for the plug, no wait, how about a free membership for a year, or better yet a coffee mug.
I believe you have received the answer to your hypothetical question as far as how to discipline your ee. Through many of the responses and have opted to ignore them and focus on how other forumites responded.
That is unfortunate because you miss out on alot of very good responses and advice.
Ritaanz, I don't think the pouting and petulance would stop in any case. x:D
It would appear some sort of cyclical problem on this BB, I'm going to start correlating the stridency of the responses with the phases of the moon.....It will be full tonite....
You're welcome to participate on The Forum. We all benefit from discussions. I learn every day and imagine that others do as well. Never stop learning, let that be your challenge. But, also, do not fall into the slump of resisting advice from experienced HR professionals simply because they have opinions and advice counter to yours or that may sound strange to you. None of it is offered in the wrong spirit. If you insist on juvenile, sophomoric rantings, surely all participants here will chalk it up to inexperience and immaturity. I had hoped to help with your dilemma by suggesting an approach with your investigation since I have been involved in many. You have villified me on this thread and several of your posts have been deleted by the administrative staff. I did not alter, ammend or edit any of my responses nor were any of mine deleted as you have earlier claimed. You have also traveled over to another site where I posted a question about "MFG Breaks" and continued your childish remarks there directed at Ray and myself. Enough is enough. Have a nice evening. x:-)
don, sounds to me like al you do is lecture, you don't listen or read the question. lisa got what i asked from the beginning.
let me quote you from message #7 "You go from 2 posts to 5 posts yet none of them are revealed on a search. Pardon my doubt. I'm just the chief 'Doubting Thomas' around these parts. We'll be calling this one 'The Case Of The Unzipped Foreigner'."
How was that trying to help me? Was that mature on your part? Was that offering advice, or was that ridicule?
And when Ray questioned whether I was on medication for my post, was that the kind of insight I should have been looking for? How about in your last posting when you called me a GENIUS, directed at me in a derogatory mannner...was that offering advice or being mature? (FYI, i posted a legit reposnse to ray in the oter sight, so i have no clue what you are ranting about).
i don't remember seeing your name as the owner or leader of the forum. thanks for your input, but really, i've had enough of all of this.
Can I jump in here on the original post and question and incident described.
Right now Marc, you have nothing for anyone to give you definitive statement of whether he should be disciplined or not, let alone on exactly what occurred and wheter or not, if something untoward did occur, whether that constitutes sexual harrassment.
You have three people who said they saw the employee unzip his zipper. The employee denies it.
Firstly, are these witnesses credible?
Did they all observe the same incident? When did it occur and how long did it last. What were they doing just before they ssaw the emplyee. What did they do when they saw what was happeining? What did they do afterward? Who else was present when the icndinet they discribe occurred.
Check out their accounts as well. In fact you may wnat ot have each reanct or show you exactly what occurred, not just describe it (by recreating the act -- of course without actually unzipping anything).
When they observed whatever they observe where were they? Where was the employee?
Was th emeployee standing? Was the emplyee sitting? Did they have a direct, unobstructed view of the salleged unzipping act"? Could they disitnctly see that it wasn't a belt buckle? Did he undo his belt buckle along with the zipper?
And tall the other quesitons that establish exactly what the emplyees saw and how and when and the like.
Same type of questions to the employee. When he unbuckled his buckled was he standing or sitting? Who else was present if he recalls?
And do the same thing with him as you did with the witnesses. Check out his credibility.
Ahhh good morning everyone! Beautiful day in KC today.......rode the bike in.....1 hour 37 minutes 9 seconds........... I officially declare this horse beaten to death.......two times over......... Formites, let this one die. Hey Tammy, do us all a favor and delete this entire thread, what do you say? Pleeeeeaaaaassssseeeeeee?? I will make you a balloon. There sent you a great balloon........ ;-)
>Ahhh good morning everyone! Beautiful day in KC >today.......rode the bike in.....1 hour 37 >minutes 9 seconds........... I officially >declare this horse beaten to death.......two >times over......... >Formites, let this one die. Hey Tammy, do us >all a favor and delete this entire thread, what >do you say? Pleeeeeaaaaassssseeeeeee?? I will >make you a balloon. >There sent you a great balloon........ ;-) > >My $0.02 worth! >DJ The Balloonman
Glad you had a nice ride in this morning. About your request to delete the entire thread, we don't do that unless ALL the posts are way out of line. Thanks for the Jayhawk balloon photo you sent. Very cute!
Thanks for the advice. I did most of what you suggested already. As I posted earlier, he denied the incident. We took the position that even the belt buckle incident(s) should be avoided and done prior to eating so that no one gets offended. He was given a warning and the matter is over. I would agree that the act of unzipping alone doesn't rise to the level of harassment under Title VII. What had me concerned is that the three witnesses are all part of the protected class; plus it would be their word against his. I think our swift inestigation was apporporaite. When there is any hint of trouble like this, i wanted to be prepared and not assume TITLE VII doesn't apply, because things aren't always black and white.
Anyway, i think we've resolved the isses. Thanks again.
Comments
You now say your intention was not to offend anyone. I for one am offended by the fact, if this is true, that you asked if Ray and I were "dating" and indicated we were "joined at the hip". I am also offended, if it is true, that you criticized Mississippi and the South and my number of posts. I am told you made those comments on this thread and that they have been removed by the administrator. If this is true, your claim that you intended to offend nobody is not truthful. And if these comments do accurately reflect what you said, I for one do not care if you post again or not. Good day and I hope your situation works out in the best interest of the company. x:-)
the question posed as to how this scenario even rises to the level of harassment, i agree, but in some circles it could have the makings of such a claim, especially it it were to continue and or be followed by other behavior.
If anything, you were the one who offended people with the comments Don mentioned and the comments about ray.
This forum is a place for input........brutal honest input....... if you get your nose easily bent out of joint well sorry.
I watched from the outside............ you did not handle this post/thread well. However this is a good bunch of folks, I am sure you will be given another shot. Don't be so jerky next
time.
As for his questioning if you and your scenario were legit, the reasoning behind this is that we sometimes get non HR folks on here, employees, unhappy looking for ammo...... One way to identify them is very few posts, asking questions that could guide one to proceed with legal action. If you look back objectively and from that perspective, you will understand where he was coming from.
My $0.02 worth!
DJ The Balloonman
I appreciate your input.
I am beginning to second guess my comment about giving you another chance........if you are offended and wish to leave the forum, good luck.
xclap
My $0.02 worth!
DJ The Balloonman
> We do not have a hard fast rule
>on this, but would like to set a clear message
>that this is unacceptable.
MarcS you stated you don't have a hard fast rule on this, I assume that means you do not have a anti-harrassment/anti-hostile work environment policy in place? If that's the case you may want to implement one.
Don't be so hard on the responses you got/get, we are all part of this diverse group of individuals with individual opinions and I opine that you jumped the gun and took offense where none was ment to be. You will find that there are times that we all agree to disagree and that is what keeps us in a job. If every issue was cut and dry then where would that leave the HR profession? Come back and see us some time and you'll find that this Forum is a great tool for the HR profession. OK James, I'll take another shirt for the plug, no wait, how about a free membership for a year, or better yet a coffee mug.
I believe you have received the answer to your hypothetical question as far as how to discipline your ee. Through many of the responses and have opted to ignore them and focus on how other forumites responded.
That is unfortunate because you miss out on alot of very good responses and advice.
JMO,
Lisa
Be Cool xB-)
This should have been a 5 minute (at most) conversation.
"Joe, you've been observed undoing your pants in the caferteria after lunch. Why are you doing this?"
Joe's response whatever it might be will give you the next step.
1. "Don't do it any more, you're making other employees uncomfortable."
or
2. "Your behavior is unacceptable. The next instance will involve disciplinary action up to and including termination."
End of discussion.#-o
It would appear some sort of cyclical problem on this BB, I'm going to start correlating the stridency of the responses with the phases of the moon.....It will be full tonite....
hey INELSON, BEAVE, and BALOONMAN, is it ok for don to throw out jabs like that? I'm just supposed to take it?
Sound familar?
let me quote you from message #7
"You go from 2 posts to 5 posts yet none of them are revealed on a search. Pardon my doubt. I'm just the chief 'Doubting Thomas' around these parts. We'll be calling this one 'The Case Of The Unzipped Foreigner'."
How was that trying to help me? Was that mature on your part? Was that offering advice, or was that ridicule?
And when Ray questioned whether I was on medication for my post, was that the kind of insight I should have been looking for? How about in your last posting when you called me a GENIUS, directed at me in a derogatory mannner...was that offering advice or being mature? (FYI, i posted a legit reposnse to ray in the oter sight, so i have no clue what you are ranting about).
i don't remember seeing your name as the owner or leader of the forum. thanks for your input, but really, i've had enough of all of this.
Stop beating this dead horse. Go on your merry way to another post or pop a top.
Right now Marc, you have nothing for anyone to give you definitive statement of whether he should be disciplined or not, let alone on exactly what occurred and wheter or not, if something untoward did occur, whether that constitutes sexual harrassment.
You have three people who said they saw the employee unzip his zipper. The employee denies it.
Firstly, are these witnesses credible?
Did they all observe the same incident? When did it occur and how long did it last. What were they doing just before they ssaw the emplyee. What did they do when they saw what was happeining? What did they do afterward? Who else was present when the icndinet they discribe occurred.
Check out their accounts as well. In fact you may wnat ot have each reanct or show you exactly what occurred, not just describe it (by recreating the act -- of course without actually unzipping anything).
When they observed whatever they observe where were they? Where was the employee?
Was th emeployee standing? Was the emplyee sitting? Did they have a direct, unobstructed view of the salleged unzipping act"? Could they disitnctly see that it wasn't a belt buckle? Did he undo his belt buckle along with the zipper?
And tall the other quesitons that establish exactly what the emplyees saw and how and when and the like.
Same type of questions to the employee. When he unbuckled his buckled was he standing or sitting? Who else was present if he recalls?
And do the same thing with him as you did with the witnesses. Check out his credibility.
And then conclude what occurred as best you can.
Formites, let this one die. Hey Tammy, do us all a favor and delete this entire thread, what do you say? Pleeeeeaaaaassssseeeeeee?? I will make you a balloon.
There sent you a great balloon........ ;-)
My $0.02 worth!
DJ The Balloonman
>today.......rode the bike in.....1 hour 37
>minutes 9 seconds........... I officially
>declare this horse beaten to death.......two
>times over.........
>Formites, let this one die. Hey Tammy, do us
>all a favor and delete this entire thread, what
>do you say? Pleeeeeaaaaassssseeeeeee?? I will
>make you a balloon.
>There sent you a great balloon........ ;-)
>
>My $0.02 worth!
>DJ The Balloonman
Glad you had a nice ride in this morning. About your request to delete the entire thread, we don't do that unless ALL the posts are way out of line. Thanks for the Jayhawk balloon photo you sent. Very cute!
Tammy Binford
Editor, M. Lee Smith Publishers
If you send me a balloon I'll stop posting to this thread.
PPPRRREEETTTTTTYYYYYY PPPPPLLLLEEEEAAASSSSEEEE!!
Lisa x0:)
Anyway, i think we've resolved the isses. Thanks again.