I'll take that wager -- and raise you $5. And after getting a pretty good feel for the kind of company this apparently is, and the type of management there -- I HOPE she sues and I HOPE she wins. And one of the best things that could come out of that is that Mom and the rest of the kinfolks learn some very important lessons.
Bjak, sometimes the issue is not, "Is it legal to do it", but "Is it the ethical thing to do". I have,on occasion, managers who ask if they can "legally" take a particular action against an employee and given the scenerio presented to me by the manager, my response may be, "Yes, but why would you want to do that to the person?" I think that is what everyone is saying to you now. Why in the world would anyone want to treat another human being in that manner? And if she continues in that vein,it cannot be productive for your company. I wish you luck, because you will need it.
I am leaving tomorrow for a four day conference and I hope, no I pray, that you will post a detailed follow up on Monday so I can look forward to reading it on my return.
Hey, and if your real family disowns you after all this, you always have us - your HR Hero family. We put the fun into dysfunctional!
I agree with San Francisco (11/27). As I read through the responses the thought kept recurring in my mind . . . what about ethics and integrity. This employee, by all that was said by the poster, is an excellent employee. To be treated this way is intolerable . . . owner or no owner. The integrity of a company is essential. This experience will have a lasting effect on her, not to mention betrayal for doing a good job. Yes, you are in a mess but I too, hope she does get an attorney, despite the assurances given you by an attorney that you can ''fire her.'' Further, I am embarrassed that you would continue to work for your family knowing how employees are treated. Incredible. Your follow-up actions can hardly be supported. The actions of your mother are reflective of your company and how it does business and you are a representative of that company. Buyer beware!
I notice this morning that bjak took my advice and totally deleted the memo he posted which was the employee's confidential memo to the personnel office. Several of you have asked now what the note was. Well, it was a rather lengthy, from the heart, rambling, honest, gut wrenching outpouring from the employee who felt mistreated and harassed. The employee mentioned in her memo that the personnel office had guaranteed her the confidential memo would never EVER be seen by anyone else, so she complied and wrote it. Not only had the company betrayed the employee by allowing the harassment to continue, the employee was concurrently betrayed by the person who assured her that the memo she was asked to write would never ever be seen by anybody, and it wound up on the internet. I can only hope that the betrayed/berated employee used the Thanksgiving holidays to enjoy her family, regroup and launch job search plans. I sincerely hope she was a no-show this morning at the problem company. The subject of the original post was "What to Do". We indeed have here a snapshot of everything NOT to do. I also hope that bjak took the 4-day opportunity to soul-search about where he really wants to be career-wise. I fear that his mother told him what time to arrive Thursday, when to begin eating, when he was through, what role to play in cleaning up and which leftovers he could brown-bag. Actually bjak, I am trying to piss you off so that you will see how real this picture really is. Something is going to have to push you to the point of waking up! Three years from now, I suspect your company will not be there.
My God Man! You've gotten advice from every corner of the universe and every conceivable angle. You've now consulted two attorneys and have heard from a multitude of HR professionals, yet, you now say you are awaiting legal advice. Yes, she certainly could draw unemployment if she had the ability to lay out this scenario and why she quit the job. No contest! Believe it or not, THERE IS LIFE AFTER WORKING IN A FAMILY BUSINESS.
I have just read this entire post, and I can hardly believe it's all real. Don, you have it right. Is this guy - gal - person really this obtuse? There is enough good advice on this forum to choke him, and he's still messing around thinking the employee doesn't have anywhere to turn. Has anyone heard of constructive discharge??? Hey, bjak, that's when an employment environment is so impossible to live with the individual feels they have no choice but to quit. In Arizona, it's one of those funky little required employment posters. While the employee is encouraged to put their complaint in writing and give management a couple weeks to come up with solutions, guess what's in big writing on the bottom??? "NOTWITHSTANDING ANY OTHER REQUIREMENTS OF THIS LAW, AN EMPLOYEE MAY BRING A CONSTRUCTIVE DISCHARGE CLAIM WITHOUT PRIOR WRITTEN NOTICE IN THE EVENT OUTRAGEOUS CONDUCT BY THE EMPLOYER OR BY A MANAGING AGENT OF THE EMPLOYER, INCLUDING SEXUAL ASSAULT, THREATS OF VIOLENCE DIRECTED AT THE EMPLOYEE, A CONTINUOUS PATTERN OF DISCRIMINATORY HARASSMENT BY THE EMPLOYER OR BY A MANAGING AGENT OF THE EMPLOYER, OR OTHER CONDUCT IF THE CONDUCT WOULD CAUSE A REASONABLE EMPLOYEE TO FEEL COMPELLED TO RESIGN." I think we're mostly in agreement that if this employee leaves, it would certainly be deemed reasonable!
Get real. I can only talk about NY &NJ, but everyone in both states has the right to apply for unemployment. If the employer chooses not challenge, it is almost guaranteed that the ee will collect. If (which thank heavens I don't) I had this situation, I would not challenge the unemployment claim. You have an employee who shows up for work after having been forced to comply with an unreasonable to demand (apologizing to your mother is unreasonable). I wouldn't be surprised if your mother continues to harass the employee. THE EMPLOYEE SHOWING UP TODAY HAS NOT SOLVED ANY OF YOUR PROBLEMS. THE SITUATION CONTINUES. Do not relax. By the way, have you spoken to your mother yet about the situation. Did you tell your mother to be "civil" until you have been given advice by the attorney?
Boy oh Boy do I wish the EE would file a claim of harrassment and bring your company to court. No offense, but if I was told to write a formal apology to a person who harrassed me continually, even after I was told by a number of people to "just ignore her", "she doesn't mean anything by it" and the like...I would be bringing the company up on charges. Talk about emotional distress...whether or not it is "allowable by law" in your state, this person could still bring up a civil suit against your mother for emotional distress. Believe me, any Jury hearing this "string" of evidence would immediately find your mother (and company) guilty as charged!
Yes, you may let her go, but that won't be the end of this saga (one can hope). You need to seriously look at putting some policies and procedures in place to protect your company in the future...or else Don will be correct in that your company won't exist in the future!!
I really feel for the EE. BUT...COME ON SHE APPOLOGIZED? YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!! Anyone who would degrade themselves for fear of being "uncomplient" needs a little soul searching themselves. I don't know who I'm more ticked off with. bjork for being so cold hearted to allow a fellow worker to "grovel to the queen" (misery loves company) or "Cinderella" for groveling!!! If she does happen to get a hold of this forum I hope she wakes up and gets some self respect. in the end that is worth more then the paycheck, the severence, or the large sum she will receive from Mommy (OK it will be close but it will be first). $$$
I am very impressed with this fourm and the advice that is given. As HR professionals the advice is still geared towards the Human side and there is no beating around the bush for answers (if read without the rose glasses). bjork I do think you need to soul search and listen to yourself. I can READ the struggle you go through. Good luck in your decision and I hope its something you can live with. Your problem won't go away by "firing it" because thats not your "problem". Disgarding the bullet in the chamber won't guarantee you won't shot yourself in the foot. You have to disgard ALL the bullets in the gun (or just get rid of the gun!!!):-?
I can't believe you would think for one minute that the employee should apologize to this woman. Do you think everything will be all better if she does? You know it won't be. How degrading for this employee to have you threaten her with this. I think now you owe an apology. The employee is an adult; this is a business, not a grade school.
No, actually after careful consideration, I have determined that it is an insane asylum and the employee is sort of an escapee in reverse who somehow sneaked into the place and cannot get away. For this reason, I return to and stand by the first answer following the question.
Not "taken very well" you say? How much more degrading and groveling to you suppose the employee might be able to become for your personal amusement? What more could one say to please those who sit in judgement? This employee should be made president of the company and the entire family should be enrolled in an employee assistance program.
>ok, do you really want to know what her apologee was? Not all that >nice and not taken very well. This is it. I can tell you this and >again, thank you for all who replied as I will have to decide what to >do this week. Thank you again. I just wanted you to see she knows >what she is doing..............and I do not think she wrote it to be >all too nice. > >I am apologizing for the events that occurred on the Date of November >20th. I am sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused you and I >am seeking counseling for my spontaneous, erratic behavior and you can >be greatly reassured that it will NEVER happen again.
Can it be that none of this has gotten through to you? Not a nice reply - hmmm, I wonder why? I think the forum needs to move on to someone else's question where they really can be of help. To you,there's nothing more to be said.
>No, actually after careful consideration, I have determined that it is >an insane asylum and the employee is sort of an escapee in reverse who >somehow sneaked into the place and cannot get away. For this reason, I >return to and stand by the first answer following the question.
Thank you very much for all of the advise, if you can think of anything that will help me or I should be aware of just let me know. I will try to post later end of the week to just let ya all know what happened in my "saga" (as some of you would call it), but it is a very real situation to our family. I regret that it seemed that way for some of you. Merry Christmas to all!
Don't knock the employee.........she has two weeks vacation coming up, she is no doubt searching furiously for a new job, but that time to search has probably been reduced by the time she has spent consulting an attorney! After returning from vacation, she will shortly after the first of the year find new employment, give notice..............and mom and the other family members will breathe a sigh of relief. Then about 7-10 days later a certified letter will arrive from the attorney....
>if you can think of anything that will help me or I should be aware of just let me know. I will try to post later >end of the week to just let ya all know what happened in my "saga" (as some of you would call it), but it is a >very real situation to our family.
If we can think of anything else that would help you...so I guess this means you're choosing to ignore the BLARING NEON SIGN that this forum string represents! Sorry to say, but there is no help for you if you're going to choose to ignore all that's been said here.
And please do let us know how this "saga" ends...if it does...It's been like a daily soap opera...whoever said that as the first post deserves credit for naming it as such.
Ugh...now I've been reduced to being 'harsh'...need to go re-read the "quotes to live by" to get me through the rest of the day.
>Thank you very much for all of the advise, if you can think of >anything that will help me or I should be aware of just let me know. I >will try to post later end of the week to just let ya all know what >happened in my "saga" (as some of you would call it), but it is a very >real situation to our family. I regret that it seemed that way for >some of you. Merry Christmas to all!
Bjak, I too can see the struggle that you are going through. It is tough working in a family-owned business but you also have to realize that it is very difficult to be a worker who is not part of the family. I work for a family owned business but they are extremely professional and hardworking. In fact, I feel like *I* am now one of the family and that makes coming to work a joy. At my previous job, they treated me horribly and as a result, I became depressed losing about 30 pounds in the course of a few weeks (from a size 6 to a 0) and the resulting depression weakened my marriage because I withdrew from everything and everybody. Your decisions and actions may not be just affecting this employee's career, you could be affecting her quality of life.
I don't know exactly what your job function is in your company but if you are taking on the role of HR, please know that it can be a very difficult position to be in. You are probably not going to be the most well liked person because you can't please everybody all the time. You must tread with care in dealing with your employees and also your managers. As an HR professional, ultimately your loyalty is to your company but there is also a flip side. You are also your employees' advocate when they are being treated unfairly, it is your responsibility to be their advocate, not their adversary. When you see an employee being treated unfairly (which I know you see that this employee is being treated in the worst way imaginable), it is your professional and ethical responsibility to step up to the plate, acknowledge the problem and try to figure out a way to deal with it in a professional, legal, ethical and humane way. And at times that can be a tall order to fill.
I agree with the previous poster who said that just because you can legally terminate, is it the ethical thing to do? What does your actions say to your other employees who are not family? To not stand up for themselves, that they will be bullied and threatened when they request to merely be treated as professionals. As a result, those employees will have low satisfaction and will not trust you as a HR professional. If employees cannot trust HR, then you are not doing your job.
If I were in the situation that you have presented here, this is how I would have handled it: 1) I would ask the EE to start from the beginning just let her vent to you about everything. Don't dismiss her concerns. Ask her if she has any solutions to any of these problems. Just listen and let her know that you have heard her and you will get back to her. 2) I would ask my mom point blank exactly what her problem is with the EE. If she did not present any valid business related concerns, it is not fair to terminate the EE because of your mother's prejudices, especially when it appears that she is doing her job well and does not have any other conflicts with any of the other employees. 3) I would present to my mom in a monetary fashion the consequences of her actions. Did you know that some sources have concluded that the cost of just defending a harassment suit is $250,000? That figure does *not* include any judgment that may be awarded as well. What are the costs of replacing a good worker like this? The training? Can your company really afford your mother's behavior? 4) If it is determined that your mom just has a problem with the EE, I would separate them so that they do not have to have direct contact with each other. Have your mom give assignments through a middle man (perhaps you?). The EE will give the work back to the middle man. And if there are any problems, the two parties should deal with the middle man, not each other.
Good luck and I will be checking back to see how things turn out.
Johnette [link:www.hrhero.com/cgi-bin/employersforum/employersforum.cgi?az=email_user&userid=Squishypig|Spread your HR wisdom, e-mail me!]
wow, I had to reread that one. I feel for both parties involved. The womens boss for having to put up with his/her "mother" and the EE because I do not think "legally" there is anything she can do from what I understand of the law because it is not "legal harassment" and it sounds like a small business. If I were the "boss" I would just see if it all passes and hope she leaves on her own and if I were the EE I would have just left along time ago because there is no reason to stay that long if it were so abusive. Personally, I feel both parties are wrong here. People will always be people and sometimes there is just nothing you can do about it.
Wow... after returning from four wonderful days in Vancouver BC I was stunned to see what had progressed in this thread. I am sorry that I missed the blow by blow. It appears Bjak for whatever reason has edited out several of his/her comments.
I give Squisypig some credit for her kind,helpful, and lengthy post despite any evidence that Bjak has listened to any previous kind, helpful, and lengthy advice.
I'd like to think something positive came out of all this. But I can't think of anything right now.
Paul, Something positive did come out of it, a good reminder to all of us on how we should treat fellow employees, or how not to. It is amazing how some people still treat the most valuable assests of any business, good people....... I actually work for a family owned business and love it. But they are professionals and value what others bring to the team. I have worked for two other family owned businesses, and after each swore never again. (Never say never!) A good run business is just that, it does not matter if it is family owned or corporate. My $0.02.
Comments
Bjak, sometimes the issue is not, "Is it legal to do it", but "Is it the ethical thing to do". I have,on occasion, managers who ask if they can "legally" take a particular action against an employee and given the scenerio presented to me by the manager, my response may be, "Yes, but why would you want to do that to the person?" I think that is what everyone is saying to you now. Why in the world would anyone want to treat another human being in that manner? And if she continues in that vein,it cannot be productive for your company. I wish you luck, because you will need it.
I am leaving tomorrow for a four day conference and I hope, no I pray, that you will post a detailed follow up on Monday so I can look forward to reading it on my return.
Hey, and if your real family disowns you after all this, you always have us - your HR Hero family. We put the fun into dysfunctional!
Paul
Mom rules the roost and it's to bad.
Yes, you may let her go, but that won't be the end of this saga (one can hope). You need to seriously look at putting some policies and procedures in place to protect your company in the future...or else Don will be correct in that your company won't exist in the future!!
(and that is my 2 cents worth)
I am very impressed with this fourm and the advice that is given. As HR professionals the advice is still geared towards the Human side and there is no beating around the bush for answers (if read without the rose glasses). bjork I do think you need to soul search and listen to yourself. I can READ the struggle you go through. Good luck in your decision and I hope its something you can live with. Your problem won't go away by "firing it" because thats not your "problem". Disgarding the bullet in the chamber won't guarantee you won't shot yourself in the foot. You have to disgard ALL the bullets in the gun (or just get rid of the gun!!!):-?
Not "taken very well" you say? How much more degrading and groveling to you suppose the employee might be able to become for your personal amusement? What more could one say to please those who sit in judgement? This employee should be made president of the company and the entire family should be enrolled in an employee assistance program.
>nice and not taken very well. This is it. I can tell you this and
>again, thank you for all who replied as I will have to decide what to
>do this week. Thank you again. I just wanted you to see she knows
>what she is doing..............and I do not think she wrote it to be
>all too nice.
>
>I am apologizing for the events that occurred on the Date of November
>20th. I am sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused you and I
>am seeking counseling for my spontaneous, erratic behavior and you can
>be greatly reassured that it will NEVER happen again.
Can it be that none of this has gotten through to you? Not a nice reply - hmmm, I wonder why? I think the forum needs to move on to someone else's question where they really can be of help. To you,there's nothing more to be said.
>an insane asylum and the employee is sort of an escapee in reverse who
>somehow sneaked into the place and cannot get away. For this reason, I
>return to and stand by the first answer following the question.
You're right...I gave them way too much credit.
Then about 7-10 days later a certified letter will arrive from the attorney....
My $0.02 worth.............
If we can think of anything else that would help you...so I guess this means you're choosing to ignore the BLARING NEON SIGN that this forum string represents! Sorry to say, but there is no help for you if you're going to choose to ignore all that's been said here.
And please do let us know how this "saga" ends...if it does...It's been like a daily soap opera...whoever said that as the first post deserves credit for naming it as such.
Ugh...now I've been reduced to being 'harsh'...need to go re-read the "quotes to live by" to get me through the rest of the day.
>anything that will help me or I should be aware of just let me know. I
>will try to post later end of the week to just let ya all know what
>happened in my "saga" (as some of you would call it), but it is a very
>real situation to our family. I regret that it seemed that way for
>some of you. Merry Christmas to all!
Bjak,
I too can see the struggle that you are going through. It is tough working in a family-owned business but you also have to realize that it is very difficult to be a worker who is not part of the family. I work for a family owned business but they are extremely professional and hardworking. In fact, I feel like *I* am now one of the family and that makes coming to work a joy. At my previous job, they treated me horribly and as a result, I became depressed losing about 30 pounds in the course of a few weeks (from a size 6 to a 0) and the resulting depression weakened my marriage because I withdrew from everything and everybody. Your decisions and actions may not be just affecting this employee's career, you could be affecting her quality of life.
I don't know exactly what your job function is in your company but if you are taking on the role of HR, please know that it can be a very difficult position to be in. You are probably not going to be the most well liked person because you can't please everybody all the time. You must tread with care in dealing with your employees and also your managers. As an HR professional, ultimately your loyalty is to your company but there is also a flip side. You are also your employees' advocate when they are being treated unfairly, it is your responsibility to be their advocate, not their adversary. When you see an employee being treated unfairly (which I know you see that this employee is being treated in the worst way imaginable), it is your professional and ethical responsibility to step up to the plate, acknowledge the problem and try to figure out a way to deal with it in a professional, legal, ethical and humane way. And at times that can be a tall order to fill.
I agree with the previous poster who said that just because you can legally terminate, is it the ethical thing to do? What does your actions say to your other employees who are not family? To not stand up for themselves, that they will be bullied and threatened when they request to merely be treated as professionals. As a result, those employees will have low satisfaction and will not trust you as a HR professional. If employees cannot trust HR, then you are not doing your job.
If I were in the situation that you have presented here, this is how I would have handled it:
1) I would ask the EE to start from the beginning just let her vent to you about everything. Don't dismiss her concerns. Ask her if she has any solutions to any of these problems. Just listen and let her know that you have heard her and you will get back to her.
2) I would ask my mom point blank exactly what her problem is with the EE. If she did not present any valid business related concerns, it is not fair to terminate the EE because of your mother's prejudices, especially when it appears that she is doing her job well and does not have any other conflicts with any of the other employees.
3) I would present to my mom in a monetary fashion the consequences of her actions. Did you know that some sources have concluded that the cost of just defending a harassment suit is $250,000? That figure does *not* include any judgment that may be awarded as well. What are the costs of replacing a good worker like this? The training? Can your company really afford your mother's behavior?
4) If it is determined that your mom just has a problem with the EE, I would separate them so that they do not have to have direct contact with each other. Have your mom give assignments through a middle man (perhaps you?). The EE will give the work back to the middle man. And if there are any problems, the two parties should deal with the middle man, not each other.
Good luck and I will be checking back to see how things turn out.
Johnette
[link:www.hrhero.com/cgi-bin/employersforum/employersforum.cgi?az=email_user&userid=Squishypig|Spread your HR wisdom, e-mail me!]
I give Squisypig some credit for her kind,helpful, and lengthy post despite any evidence that Bjak has listened to any previous kind, helpful, and lengthy advice.
I'd like to think something positive came out of all this. But I can't think of anything right now.
Paul
Something positive did come out of it, a good reminder to all of us on how we should treat fellow employees, or how not to.
It is amazing how some people still treat the most valuable assests of any business, good people.......
I actually work for a family owned business and love it. But they are professionals and value what others bring to the team. I have worked for two other family owned businesses, and after each swore never again. (Never say never!)
A good run business is just that, it does not matter if it is family owned or corporate.
My $0.02.