Papal visit

Paul in Cannon Beach

So is the papal visit a significant event for any of our forum members? Its pretty big news on all the cable news networks. His every move is being covered extensively. Huge crowds lined the streets of NY today to catch a glimpse of the "Pope mobile".

Apparently the pope met with victims of sexual abuse and has spoken out against the specter of sexual abuse that has hung over the church for some time. Its admirable that he is taking a stand but whether that will translate into action remains to be seen. Its my understanding that Catholic churches face a shortage of priests and we all know that "shortstaffing" can be a temptation to make bad decisions.

I am not a Catholic but my daughter attends Catholic school. There is much to Catholicism that I disagree with and even object to (calling the pope "Holy Father" for example). But I was curious if this visit is a meaningful experience to anyone on this forum?

allsteaks

The Pope gracing our nation with his presence was a wonderful event for all of us, not just Catholics. His message was positive and uplifting, not a condemnation of our hedonistic ways. Undoubtedly many people, in fact I would guess the majority of the world, disagrees with one or more basic principles of the Church, but that is true of any religion or faith. But if we seek common ground and listen to each other we are more alike than different.
So for me Paul, His Holiness's visit was very, very meaningful!! That is likely another title you don't care much for.

joannie

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 04-21-08 AT 07:51AM (CST)[/font][br][br]The Pope called for all of us to be good stewards of the gifts we are given and to treat each other with love and respect. I think that is a meaningful message to everyone, whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jew or atheist.

I don't understand the objection to calling the Pope, Holy Father. The title is a sign of respect. Pastors of other churches are call Pastor, Brother, Sister, or Reverand So & So. In some Protestant religions, the title "Right Reverend" is used. I'm curious, do you object to Mother Teresa, being called "Mother"? Please explain your objection.

ACU Frank

The Pope and the Dalai Lama were both touring the U.S. at the same time... I assumed it was a buildup to the next big pay-per-view Ultimate Fighting Championship.

joannie

What, Frank, you think the world's two most holy men would have a grudge match? If they shared a podium, I think it would usher in the new "Age of Aquarius". Peace and Love, Brother.

NeedCoffee

Hee hee. The mental image is too much.

Paul in Cannon Beach

First off, I want to be respectful to Catholics so everything I am going to say is simply my sincere feelings and I am receptive to anyone who can educate me.

My objection to "Holy Father" and to a lesser degree "His Holiness" is because those terms refer to God and should not be applied towards a man, any man.

In John 17:11, Jesus prays "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name." Who was Jesus praying to? Not the pope. He was praying to the Holy Father God.

To apply that name to a man is beyond my understanding. That a man would allow others to call him that name is also beyond my understanding.

No man is holy. Only God is holy. Any righteousness we have is through Christ and Christ alone. That is not my opinion. That is what the Bible states.

I am not saying the Pope is a bad man or that people shouldn't respect him as the leader of the Catholic church. I object to the way he is elevated and practically worshiped. Worship of anyone or anything but God is idolatry.

I think the Pope can have a positive impact on the Catholic church and even the world scene but the idea that I should bow to him or consider him something other than a man like myself is something that I have a hard time accepting.

ACU Frank

In this corner... weighing in at 140 lbs... The Saffron Scourge... the Dalai Laaaaaaaamaaaaa!

And in this corner... at 185 lbs... The Mitered Madman... Pope Bennnnnnnnedict!

NeedCoffee

OK Frank, how long did it take you to come up with the alliterative names?

ACU Frank

>OK Frank, how long did it take you to come up with the alliterative names?


No time at all... That's what I always call them. Wait 'til they get in a Battle Royal with Barbarian Billy Graham!

allsteaks

Paul - since your child/children attend Catholic school I would suggest that you have a conversation with the parish priest where they attend. The names that we call the Pope are respectful names, just as the queen of England is call "your highness" (another biblical term). I do understand your confusion though. But rest assured that we do not worship Pope Benedict, or the Blessed Virgin Mary, or anyone other than God. We turn to the Pope for leadership, direction and inspiration, and we rely on him to provide those attributes. As you heard of the news repeatedly during the weekend, many American Catholics do not agree with the Pope and/or the Church on many issues, but that doesn't change his status as our spiritual leader.
Perhaps a one on one conversation with a priest can clear it up for you, or at least help you understand but still not agree.

joannie

Allsteaks has made a very good suggestion. Or, most parishes offer a non-committment inquiry class for non Catholics who would like to learn more about the Catholic faith. To learn about another religion does not mean one has to convert to or even agree with that religion. It does us all good to broaden our minds.

One the subject of being holy. Yes, God is holy, and God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. God created man in his own likeness. I believe that everything created by God is holy; however, man chooses to act in an unholy manner. To be holy one needs to act in a Christ-like manner. Some of us are better than others in doing that.

Paul in Cannon Beach

Steaks, I have done my homework on the issue. I just am not posting some of my more inflammatory views. There is no point to it.

I just was curious to see if forum members were excited about the papal visit or wanted to discuss the significance of it. I am not interested in an argument because nothing can be gained from it. I only mention my "Holy Father" gripe because its a minor quibble of mine that came up over the weekend as I listened to the news coverage.

From all I have heard, the Popes visit was a huge success.

joannie

Paul, I'm asking this because I'm curious, not trying to start an argument. If you have serious issues with the Catholic Church, why do you allow your daughter to attend a Catholic school? Religious education and the tenents of the Catholic Church are a part of the school curriculum.

Paul in Cannon Beach

She attends the school because its the best school in the county and they accept non-Catholics. She and I have discussed the aspect of religious instruction that is part of her school experience. I have told her I expect her to be respectful of anything that may be different from what our family believes and see everything as an interesting life experience.

Does that make sense?

Paul in Cannon Beach

I propose at 11 am Pacific time we hold a multi-faith time of prayer for ACU Frank who seems hell bent on insulting all major world religions before lunch.

cnghr

At first, Paul, I really wondered why you would send your daughter to a Catholic school, given your beliefs, but at least it sounds as if you've taught her to be respectful of the differences between your faith and the Catholic faith. I'm curious, though, how will you feel if she decides at some point she wants to convert to Catholicism?

marina

Paul, I really did not want to become envolved in this topic, but now I feel I must give my 2 cents.A non Catholic is sending the daughter to a Catholic school and to top the matter he is "criticizing" the way the Catholics are treating Catholic matters? . I can just imagine how confused your daughter is, regardless how intelligently and rationally you explain things to her: just look at the reactions coming out in this forum.
I once lived in Augusta, GA, where I met a Catholic lady who put her 2 sons (also Catholic) in a private Baptist school. One day they came home crying their eyes out because a teacher had given out a "comic like" book where Catholics were depicted as "gays, baby killers, Black Pope worshipers, and many other disgusting things!!
Sure that was pretty extremist but you go and explain that to 2 young kids!!
I am finally going to say that Catholics do not "worship" the Pope: we love Him as we are tought to love Christ .
Good day.
I

Paul in Cannon Beach

Cnghr - I dont think I can "stop" my daughter from believing anything. When we made the decision to send her to Catholic school, we understood that she would be exposed to Catholic teaching, rituals, etc. My only concern was that she be respectful during any excercise or lesson that might differ from our families belief.

Marina - I think I am free to post my opinions and I have tried to do so in a respectful manner. The example you gave of the comic book sounds fairly despicable if its true.

I dont think my daughter is confused by anything. We discuss these issues all the time. I have been consistent with her that she doesn't have to "agree" with the Catholic aspects of her school experience but I expect her to be respectful of them.

Reading your post leads me to believe you are offended and that is unfortunate. I dont see why we can't have a respectful dialogue about religion.

cnghr

Paul, I noticed that you more or less avoided my actual question: I didn't ask if you thought you could stop your daughter from believing anything, I just asked how you would feel (and, as an extension of those feelings, react) should she decide to convert at some point. I speak of this with experience: I was raised Baptist, and the church I attended was of the sort that Marina mentioned. They openly derided Catholicism and were extremely disrespectful of it. I took my children to that church until I couldn't stand the negativity any longer, when we switched to the Methodist church, whose social conscience and overall world view are much closer to my own sensibilties. When my son was a teenager, however, he became interested in Catholicism. The old anti-Catholic views that had been pounded into my head for 30+ years immediately reared their ugly head and when he first began attending classes at the Catholic church, I was very upset about it. By the time he decided to actually convert, my normally more tolerant views had reasserted themselves and even when he told me that he felt a call to the priesthood, I was able to handle it with what I hope was good grace and a total lack of condemnation. But many non-Catholic Christians I know wouldn't be able to react very positively and the message to the child would end up being one of extreme disapproval. I know in my own family my decision to leave the Baptist church for the Methodist (even though I was in my 30's at the time) was treated as though I'd somehow crossed over to "the dark side". I'm not saying that is the way you would react, because obviously I don't know you. I also applauded the fact that it sounds like you are teaching your daughter to be respectful of other faiths.

I am not surprised that Marina sounded offended in her post, what does surprise me is your rather wounded tone when you say that you don't see why we can't have a respectful dialogue about religion. You surely didn't start this subject without expecting to see some strong reactions. I can't even discuss religion with my own siblings without getting into VERY heated discussions!

joannie

Every year when our parish starts the process to bring new people into the Catholic Church, our priest tells the prospective converts "Once you become a Catholic, I never want to hear you put down your old church. Your old church led you here and for that you should be thankful."

Paul in Cannon Beach

Hey, I am all for discussions. Even heated discussions. My only thing is to keep it respectful and that was what I was attempting but I got the feeling that Marina was offended. Which is unfortunate and not my intention. I re-read my original posts and I feel I have gone out of my way to avoid being offensive.

As for answering your question, I didnt mean to avoid it. How would I feel if my daughter became a Catholic? As long as she based her salvation on Christ Jesus alone then she can be or call herself whatever she wants. I guess that is how I feel. I have friends who I consider Christians who attend Catholic church because it feels right to them. I have no problem with that. My only issue would be the basis for salvation because that is (to me) the most important question.

I don't foresee her becoming a Catholic because right now she dislikes Mass. She told me it lasts three hours. Its only 45 minutes. I told her that she should view it as an interesting life experience and be respectful.

Personally, I think we need MORE discussion and dialogue in this country and less bigotry, hatred, and name calling. That said, some subjects will bring out about strong emotions and those emotions have to be kept in check. I have tried to do that here.

marina

It is so funny but I was typing away my answer when Cnghr posted his /hermessage. I really cannot say it any better than he (or she?) said it.
I was born and raised Catholic and some type of controversy has followed me wherever I lived.
Good luck to Paul and his daughter: they have a difficult path ahead so I wish them luck and lots of strength.
Whatever your nomination is you will always receive criticism from somebody else and if you are not strong in your belief (or in whatever you beleive in) then you'll have a problem.

Paul in Cannon Beach

So, Marina, was the popes visit a significant experience for you? That was my original question.

Apparently he is against the war in Iraq. Does that influence your view?

I am curious. I am not trying to be disrespectful.

marina

Paul please believe me when I say that you did not offend me, not at all.
His visit has been indeed very significant especially when I saw how people greeted Him. I am against the war in Iraq and I have been since the beginning. What a waste of lives and money - but this is another topic for the Forum!!
My husband had already retired when that happened and very selfishly I thanked God for that!!
The issue of religion Paul is such a delicate one that no matter how respectful and tactful we are it can cause some heated discussions, eventually.
As a Catholic I have heard all kind of negativity and by the way that story I told was absolutely true: I still remember the name of that nasty "comic booK: "ALBERTO. I will never forget it: when I discussed this matter with our priest in Augusta he said he had seen it for sale at a book store at the mall!!
It is absolutely wonderful though to share all this whith people from all over the US: I am so glad I am HR!

Paul in Cannon Beach

I followed the papal coverage all weekend and was impressed with the greeting myself. Especially since the previous Pope was such a beloved person.

Fox News gave the Popes visit extended coverage.

joannie

The most offended I have been was when I attended a friend's wedding at the Church of Christ. They had religious pamphlets in the sanctuary and many of those pamphlets were very vicious and spread outright fallacies about the Catholic Church. I'm sorry, but the sanctuary of any church should be a holy place, not a place to promote hatred among people.

Paul in Cannon Beach

Now you have offended all the Church of Christ forum members!

JOKE! I am JOKING!!

cnghr

Joannie, I know exactly which sorts of pamphlets you're talking about. I remember when they used to have racks of similar things just inside the door of the sanctuary of the church I attended as a child. I remember them as striking me as very frightening when I was young, not necessarily because they made me frightened of the "enemies" as portrayed in them but because of the negativity and hatred being spread in a place that it seemed should have been more loving toward everyone.

Discussions of religion tend to prompt some very emotional reactions. In my case, when confronted with the sort of "whack-upside-the-head with a Bible" sentiments that I grew up with, many of which were based on fear, I have to struggle with my natural reaction to automatically condemn anyone who is in any way associated with that denomination.

I have often joked that I have heard of people talking about being scarred emotionally from growing up Catholic or Jewish, but you don't very often hear about someone struggling with the scars left by growing up Baptist. I definitely have them, although I think (I hope) I am able to express myself rationally in most instances when the subject comes up, at least when the others involved in the discussion seem to be trying to be respectful and have an open discussion. The last time I discussed religion (well, actually, it was a combination of religion and politics, since the question at hand was whether or not our current president was really a born-again Christian) with my brother, I reacted very emotionally, but part of that was because he treated me very condescendingly and even laughed at some of my opinions. I guess big brothers don't ever stop picking on their younger sisters, even at our ages!

joannie

Anything that promotes hatred of those different from ourselves is frightening. It doesn't matter if it is religion, skin color, nationality, or what. I guess we should jump on the bandwagon and promote hatred against those who promote hatred.

Paul in Cannon Beach

That antidote to bigotry is talking and not taking yourself too seriously. Hey, that was kind of profound.