Barry Bonds

ray a

Hero or Goat?

ritaanz

I do not think he did this feat without assistance from drugs.

allsteaks

Yes and No. You have to give the man his due, he's played a lot of years to get to the record. On the other hand, Aaron's record was special to baseball and to have someone on the "juice" break it just seems wrong. I haven't followed it that closely but I wonder if he received the racial hate mail and threats like Hank Aaron did? He likely received a lot of hate mail, hopefully it wasn't so racially motivated.

ray a

I just read that a NY'er ended up with the historic ball. It's predicted to be worth about $400-500k, below the $3.3mil for McGuire's 70th HR ball.

I'm not so sure we should castigate Bonds for the steroid issue. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are not illegal drugs, just banned from use in baseball as a fairness issue. You and I could take the same steroids and not be guilty of anything. How many other athletes have used steroids similar to Bonds and get away with it? Why pick on Bonds?

SMace

Steroids are a controlled substance. They are illegal without a prescription.

ray a

Correct. So, if he had prescriptions?

NeedCoffee

Both - regardless of whether he juiced up, it still takes skill to hit that tiny little ball going 100 mph with a tiny little bat. For that and that alone, he is a hero.

He's a goat because (1) he's a proven a#%hole, (2) his 756 may have been ill-obtained and (3) in Hank Aaron's time, they didn't have the technological and pharmaceutical advances in training, materials and therapy that they do today.

You could say that although Bonds' feat is impressive, Aaron's is even more so due to the conditions under which he achieved it.

ritaanz

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-08-07 AT 09:09AM (CST)[/font][br][br]Hey Guys. I know it is a man's world when the excuses start rolling by. Oh well, some things never change.

Edit: In this particular instance Guys are people of the masculine persuasion.

ray a

Um... Ritaanz, she probably posted while you were writing, but notice Coffee also gave him a degree of hero status.

OK, Coffee, you mention technological advances with training. That's true, so we should put an asterisk next to anyone who set a new record as a result of better training techniques?

I don't really see him as a hero, mainly for his attitude and approach to the game. He acts likes the fans are a mere necessary evil to put up with.

NeedCoffee

I agree - he's definitely not a hero, per se - I was merely using the same terminology as the original post.

I don't think you need to put an asterisk down next to new records...after all, there are many records being broken in sports where you can more easily compare "apples to apples." I'm just saying that in Aaron's heyday, it was, excuse the pun, a different ballgame.

Anyone else think its interesting that the players' group lobbied so hard (and won) for baseball players to NOT be tested for performance enhancing drugs?

ray a

Ah... Coffee, you just got a base hit. Bonds may or may not have used substances banned by baseball - he probably did, and he may or may not have had a prescription for them. The bigger issue that I see is how testing is performed and policies administered for illegal substances throughout the sports world. The typical employer who has a drug policy will terminate an ee who tests positive for illegal drugs. I walk them to the door immediately, their only possible second chance is to successfully complete a rehad program at their own expense and apply to be rehired. With professional athletes they get a slap on the wrist and one more change, ad infinitum. Or, at least it seems so. I'm more concerned about the athletes on cocaine and other illegal drugs that get another chance then another then another....

NeedCoffee

I agree. Look at cycling - drug testing has given the sport a lot of negative publicity lately, but at least they are working hard to level the playing field and ensure that players who use are not allowed to race again.

Paul in Cannon Beach

If you read the Sports Illustrated article about Barry Bonds and his steroid use, you cant look at the man the same again.

He is the worst kind of human being and he stole a cherished sports record (if not the most cherished) from a true hero with the aid of chemical substances. He cheated.

The only consolation I have is that Barry Bonds has to live with himself.

ACU Frank

Paul, I agree with your basic assessment, but as far as Bonds having to live with himself... he will probably die believing that anything short of 100% public adulation for the rest of his life was the result of the press/commissioner/DA/etc. out to get him, racism, and OUR inability to fully understand the complexity of his character. In other words, he'll blame everyone and everything else for the lack of appreciation for his feats.

allsteaks

There is intelligent life on this forum after all; Frank and Paul were very astute in their observations and are to be congratulated. Now go back to trying to be funny.

ACU Frank

HR may be my profession, and humor my hobby... but BASEBALL is my passion!

ray a

I think they both struck out. Barry is not the problem. Baseball's policies and nonchallant approach to enforcement are the problems. Until professional sports gets serious about drug enforcement, there will be Barry's who take advantage of the system.

Paul in Cannon Beach

I dont disagree with you there Ray. But you dont excuse a bank robber because a bank had lax security.

How is Barry not the problem?

ray a

There has been speculation about Barry's steroid use, but no proof. Would you condemn an employee based on idle gossip without any substantial proof? Has MLB even tried to perform an investigation like you or I would for our employers? Professional athletes are always looking for a competitive edge, Barry from all appearances found one, though illegally. But, as long as MLB allows him to continue unpunished, there will be others who will try to get away with it too.

ACU Frank

I'd hate to see all of Ray's problem employees excused because they merely "took advantage" of lax policies or enforcement.

I-N-D-I-V-I-D-U-A-L

R-E-S-P-O-N-S-I-B-I-L-I-T-Y

ray a

If an employer is lax with policy enforcement, then there will be ee's taking advantage. Human nature. The solution is discipline. Something we talk about often on the forum.

ACU Frank

BTW... Barry admitted using steroids. It's in the leaked grand jury testimony. If it wasn't in there, there wouldn't be an attorney facing prison time because of it.

Remember, he said he thought he was paying thousands of dollars a month for "flaxseed oil".

ray a

In my world, Barry would have been gone a long time ago. But, MLB and specifically the Giants are benefiting from his services so he remains employed. MLB and his employer, the Giants, want him and think they need him regardless of his drug use. They continue to pay him an astonomical salary to keep doing what he has been doing.

Frank, would you overlook an employee who breaks the rules and maybe even does something illegal merely because he is perceived as valuable to the organization? That's what MLB is doing.

Paul in Cannon Beach

Ray, you probably know more about the MLB side of it than I do. I stopped following baseball closely years ago.

But I read the Sports Illustrated article closely and it was a very thorough, very damning blow by blow account of Bonds steroid use.

Bonds was obsessed with achieving super stardom and willing to go to any lengths to achieve it.

What I meant by "he has to live with himself" was that by all accounts, he is a nasty human being. I think his steroid use has accentuated his anger problem.

I dont see him enjoying what he gave everything to obtain.

ray a

Well, I'm far from being a baseball expert. I just find it odd all this antipathy and hatred toward Bonds and the talk about putting an asterisk next to his name in the record books. His employer is condoning his actions and they are getting a free ride. As I said a few days ago, I am not a fan of his. He is not a good role model on several levels.

lnelson

I am astonished by how many of you are condemning someone you have never met nor know.
Everything stated on this thread is heresay,
FACT: Bonds has NEVER failed a steriod test.

His accomplishment of hitting 73 homeruns in 2001 and hitting the all time record of 755 now 757 could not be done just by allegedly taking performance enhancers it takes eye hand cordination. He has been playing baseball since he was 5yrs old. He has accomplished this feat from hard work and practice. He may not be liked by many people but so what, my son went up to him before a game and he was very nice to sign a baseball for him for free, many players charge for it.

He plays because he loves the game as his father, brother and godfather do/did.

Hero to both of my sons.

Giants Fan

System

In my experience, nasty human beings don't have too much trouble sleeping at night (or "living with themselves"). I mean, that's part of the nastiness - they have little conscience and don't care much about the effects of their behavior on others.

Though I agree that Bonds isn't exactly a happy person.

Paul in Cannon Beach

lnelson, you consider a Sports Illustrated investigative report hearsay?

You are correct in that none of us have actually met the man but he has a well documented pattern of surliness and egotism.

I found the Sports Illustrated report to be fair and objective. It wasn't an opinion piece. It was dates, names, and specific details.

ACU Frank

It's not hearsay if you admit it to a grand jury.

I know it's a rough time when you learn your heroes have feet of clay, but I was talking to a friend of mine in the Bay area last week and he says he's amazed at the level of denial there.

System

[font color="6633cc"}>lnelson, you consider a Sports Illustrated
>investigative report hearsay?
>
>You are correct in that none of us have actually
>met the man but he has a well documented pattern
>of surliness and egotism.
>
>I found the Sports Illustrated report to be fair
>and objective. It wasn't an opinion piece. It
>was dates, names, and specific details. [/font]

I agree. Even if you ignore the steroid use, there's enough about Bonds' behavior that, in my opinion, should cause serious concerns about him being considered a "hero" by anyone, especially children.

Though to be fair, when you say the "Sports Illustrated investigative report", are you talking about the "The Truth: Barry Bonds and Steroids" article that appeared in March 2006? If so, I have to admit that that that article did contain plenty of hearsay...it wasn't exactly a "Sports Illustrated report" - it was an excerpt from the book Game of Shadows, though that book at least was written as an investigative piece. Still, it wasn't entirely clear to me how much of what was written was based on fact and how much was conjecture. In that article, at least (which I just reread online), there are many factual-sounding assertions for which the authors do not provide the bases (or if they do, they're not mentioned in the article). Take the following quote, for example:

"On the West Coast, Barry Bonds was astounded and aggrieved by the outpouring of hero worship for McGwire, a hitter whom he regarded as obviously inferior to himself. Bonds was 34 years old, had played in the big leagues for 12 years and was known for an unusual combination of speed and power. Before the 1993 season he had signed what was then the richest contract in the game: $43.75 million for six years, and he knew he was on his way to the Hall of Fame. For as long as he had played baseball, Bonds had regarded himself as better than every other player he encountered, and almost always he was right."

I mean, all of the above may match what we've seen of Barry Bonds' demeanor, but I doubt Barry Bonds himself gave this account of his feelings. So it seems odd to me to assert so matter-of-factly what Bonds was thinking and feeling. Similarly, things like:

"Of course Anderson's primary job, and the real reason he was hired, was to provide Bonds with performance-enhancing drugs and to track his regimen. Anderson obtained the drugs and administered them. In file folders, and on his computer, he kept calendars of Bonds's use of the substances, recording the drugs, dosages and cycles."

While this may be true, we have no idea where the authors of the SI article get this information (and, if I recall correctly, the authors have refused to identify some of their sources).

I enjoyed the article, and I know the authors have been commended for their investigative work in the area of steroid use in baseball, but I'm not exactly sure I'm ready to look to this article as the paradigm of objectivity.

Of course, you may have been referring to a completely different Sports Illustrated article, in which case feel free to ignore the above. :-)

ray a

Base hit, Missk. So far everything I've read is based on conjecture, suposition, and opinions. No hard evidence, other than his well documented surliness.