Politics upside down

ray a

Zell Miller, retiring Senator from Georgia and a Democrat, will be the keynote speaker tonight at the Republican Convention endorsing Bush for President. What say ye of the Democrat persuasion?

Parabeagle

Southern democrats are notoriously fickle?

Whatever

He will not have the draw of Ron Reagan (the President's son).

Dasher

It's okay with me.

Ron Reagan was surprisingly good. I caught his speech on stem cell research.

Leslie

My mother, a lifetime Dem voting for W, was chatizing me last Thursday, saying, "You need to vote for the man, not the party." I told her I was. Everyone has their point of view, and I see a lot of cross overs on this one.

Parabeagle

Alas, Leslie, I think Kerry lost pretty big on points in the swiftboat controversy. Latest polls are showing Bush ahead of Kerry, despite Bush's 52% approval rating.

I think what hurt Kerry most was the fact that he did not come out and condemn the negative ads against Bush after Bush called for an end to the negative ad campaigns on both sides.

ray a

As contentious as this race is shaping up to be, just wait 4 years. We will look back to 2004 as the "good ole days". The 2008 race will make this race look like a Sunday School picnic. Let's see Hillary is sure to be in the mix to create controversy in the dem's camp. And the repub's will have an "arm wrestling" match between the conservatives and the moderates for control of the party. Gov. Pataki, from NY, is introducing Bush tonight. He is being pushed to the forefront by some as the next voice of the party. Problem is, he is socially liberal - favors abortion and gun control, two hot button with the conservative right.

deniseE

Zell has been voting with the Republican's since W became president. No one is surprised...and no one really cares. The democrats, as a whole, are a less structured group. The republicans have a strong party loyalty, even when you don't agree you vote with them because that's just how it is done. Not so much with the dems, generally.

It would have been quite a coup if McCain had switched sides...but not a chance, really.

I think the election will boil down to WHO gets out to vote. We are idealogically a very divided nation right now. Even more so than in 2000. Look for polling stations to be under close scrutiny. And questions to be raised about the validity of ballots.

National Guard

I didn't know that abortion and gun control were BOTH liberal views. I would think gun control was conservative?

ray a

Gun control - liberals tend more toward tighter control and regulation, conservatives lean more toward less restriction. Abortion - liberals tend more toward less restriction, conservatives lean more toward tighter control and regulation going so far as to outlaw it. But neither party is 100% one way or the other. The perception is that liberals favor a more libertarian approach to regulation and conservatives like to make rules telling others how to live their lives. Often it is the opposite. Politics is full of irony.

During the Dem's convention, the "Right-to-Life" segment felt disenfranchized from the convention process. Now the pro-abortion and gun control repubs, who are labeled moderates, feel left out of the repub's convention.

Dutch2

Isn't Gun Control when you hit your target?

safety

Yup.

Parabeagle

I am soooooo friggin' tired of seeing Michael Moore's pathetic mug plastered all over my TV screen! Watched the cameras on him at the convention last night as McCain called him "disingenuous." Moore mugged for the camera and did just about everything but stick his thumbs in his ears, wag his fingers, and yell "nya, nya."

I understand he was writing about the convention for USA Today. Guess I won't be reading that newspaper anymore.

JudyT929

Whats this "pro abortion" cr*p? No one is "pro" abortion it's pro choice! It's telling the government to stay out of the PERSONAL lives of women. Deciding to terminate a pregnancy is a very emotional and PERSONAL issue and there are thousands of different reasons why someone must make such a painful decision, it's none of the governments dang business!

And speaking of pro choice how is it that conservatives can be FOR the death penalty and AGAINST pro choice?

SMace

This is not meant to label my personal opinion on abortion, but you asked a question.

Generally someone get's the death penalty when they murder someone. I'm not aware of any fetus murderers.

Don D

Sorry, I've been out of town for three days on business and was just walking down the hall and happened upon this Social Science class and wanted to opine: Ron Reagan having a bigger 'draw' than Zell Miller tonight? What a hoot. Never! Reagan spooked nobody. Miller spooks every breathing Democrat.

"Polls show Bush ahead of Kerry, despite Bush's 52? approval rating"?

"Nobody cares about Zell Miller's votes"? Every Democrat cringes when he walks into the chamber to vote, except Kerry, who is never there. Miller has been voting his 'conscience' for 23 years.

Gun Control a conservative issue? Well, literally it's both a liberal and a conservative issue. Liberals want our guns confiscated. Conservatives believe in the right to privately, personally bear and own arms, as the constitution grants.

Pro abortion vs. Pro choice? Sure, most of the time. But, when it comes to poking scissors into the skull of a 34 week old fetus, that ain't hardly choice, that's abortion, pro abortion. Other than "I didn't want the little sucker", can you give me one reason for the partial borth abortion?

"I'm not aware of any fetus murderers", states one of my esteemed colleages. Doesn't even warrant a response. Those adults condemned to the death penalty are guilty of having committed an atrocious crime against their fellow citizens that warrants their removal from society, not by incarceration, but by death. How might that compare to the crimes and sins committed by the fetus? By any stretch, do you really think you can compare the two?

Whirlwind

>Other than "I didn't want the little sucker",
>can you give me one reason for the partial borth
>abortion?
>


I can give you three:

1. Rape
2. Incest
3. Significant health risk to the mother. I believe the latest ruling against a partial birth abortion prohibition at the state level was because it didn't adequately provide for protection of the mother's life.

ray a

I hear the "significant health risk" argument a lot, but those who use it can never seem to give any examples. With modern medicine, it just is not a factor. Rape and incest are a problem. But, 99.9999% of the time the reason for an abortion is "I just don't want it" aka, "it doesn't fit my lifestyle", "Oops, I thought we were done having kids", "I can't afford it", "My boyfriend pressured me to have an abortion", "It may be retarded", etc.

Don D

My problem with that is this: A pregnant woman who was raped or endured incest knew that the moment she knew she was pregnant. There is absolutely no sensible reason to wait for week 34 to have an abortion in that instance. None.

I have heard more than one medical authority say, including the conclusion of the AMA, that there is no known documented case of a partial birth abortion being done for the health of the mother. They say that simply isn't the case at that point in the delivery process.

If you want to abort, abort early, not 15 seconds before the baby is crying.

Whirlwind

I don't mean to imply that I generally favor late-term abortions, but your point that women always know they're pregnant in time for an first-trimester termination of the pregnancy is incorrect. I personally knew a very naive teenage girl who was seduced and statutorily raped by an older man. Because of a combination of the way her pregnancy progressed and her own psychological trauma, she did now "know" she was pregnant until about a month before she delivered. Admittedly, such things are extremely rare, as are pregnancies that endanger the mother's life. But they do occur and I believe, therefore, that any ban on late-term abortions should provide exceptions for these situations.

SMace

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 09-01-04 AT 08:47PM (CST)[/font][br][br] >"I'm not aware of any fetus murderers", states
>one of my esteemed colleages. Doesn't even
>warrant a response. Those adults condemned to
>the death penalty are guilty of having committed
>an atrocious crime against their fellow citizens
>that warrants their removal from society, not by
>incarceration, but by death. How might that
>compare to the crimes and sins committed by the
>fetus? By any stretch, do you really think you
>can compare the two?

You either missed my point, I didn't make it clear, or both. My statement was intended to point out that her comparision did not make sense. I thought she was saying that since conservatives advocate "murdering" adults why don't they advocate murdering babies. So my response was intended to point out that the adults were being punished for their crimes. The babies are crime free.


Oh, I see now, I should have said I'm not aware of any fetuses that have committed murder.

deniseE

Don, Liberals don't want to take your guns!!! Liberals would like to try to keep weapons, generally used for hunting people, rather than game, out of criminal hands.

I tend to think that conservatives and liberals are much closer on this issue than it sometimes appears.

Don D

You are correct in that liberals will tell me "I do not want to take your guns". But, in their zeal to try to keep them out of the hands of criminals, they discover the only way do that is to ban them. Criminals will always have guns. They steal them.

The democrats are at this moment trying to make gun shows and certain hunting rifles illegal. Law abiding people go to gun shows to view expensive and odd/antique weaponry and involve themselves in comraderie. The punk who wants a Saturday night special ain't paying five bucks to get into a gun show. He's breaking into my pickup while I am inside the gun show.

JudyT929

My point was: If someone considers a fetus (speaking only in the first tri-mester, I am not for partial late-term birth abortion unless the mothers life is truly at risk)to be a human life and feels that it should be illegal to terminate that "life" how can that same person be FOR the death penalty? Isn't a life a life? I believe in life w/o the possibility of parole for violent criminals. I also believe in "cruel and unusual" punishment for those same people; I just happen to think that death is too good and too easy for those horrendous criminals. I am NOT pro-abortion, and I certainly don't think it should be used as a method of birth control. I don't think the government should regulate a woman's right to choose. Unfortunetly, some people do choose abortion simply because the "timing isn't right" or some other lame excuse and often repeat their mistake. But just because some people abuse their right the government shouldn't penalize all others. There are numerous legitimate personal reasons including rape and incest that a woman might feel her only choice is to have an abortion and she shouldn't have to go to some back alley to obtain one.
Alcohol was once illegal and now it is legal, a LOT of people abuse alcohol; drunk drivers kill thousands of people; alcoholism ruins many families (my father was an alcoholic); so should alcohol be illegal? Of course many may say that is a lame comparisom but the point is why punish or deprive the masses because some abuse their right, whatever that right may be?

National Guard

At first I thought Ray's explanation in post 9 made a lot of sense. But honestly, I think Dutch2 in post 10 explains gun control the best.

Now, after reading all of the posts, again I am confused. So If I am pro-choice and for gun control, what am I?

JudyT929

A democrat? smile

ray a

Or just a confused liberal republican. x}>

National Guard

I already knew I was confused! O=*

But I have often thought that my party affiliation was inherited like a gene passed on. I often just end up voting for the person who is most attractive or who bombard you with the most yard signs. x}>

Parabeagle

With all the hyperbole on both sides of the aisle in this election (although I have to admit Cheney was pretty funny last night - must be using David Letterman's writers for some of his lines), you might just be better off trusting your vote to the toss of a coin. x;-)

Whatever

Someone once told me that when a woman becomes pregnant, she will live with the pregnancy the rest of her lift. If she chooses to have an abortion, she will have to live with that decision. If she chooses to give the child up for adoption, she will have to live with that decision. If chooses to raise the child, she will have to live with that decision. AS the mother of two adopted daughters, while I am grateful that their biological mothers did not have abortions, I strongly believe in the right of the woman to choose.

As to the death penalty, it doesn't work and is unjust (see State of Illinois which it is currently banned because so many innocent people were sentenced to die).

Parabeagle

Almost as funny as the convention itself. x;-)

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