Ooh! Even better! Forfeiture of 50% of their royalties for next twelve months, which they will no doubt contest in court as illegal. At that point they will be forced to spend a small fortune on attorneys to prove to a judge that what FCC/ASCAP is doing is illegal, in addition to losing all those royalties while the case drags on. Then, when they're really down in the mud, call in the IRS to audit their income taxes for the last seven years. x;-)
I definitely agree that some of the outrage should be directed at this depiction of a man "ripping" the clothing off a woman. Date rape and violence towards women should never be portrayed as "entertainment".
I live by the woods and there will be a six foot hole for any guy that has intentions to treat my daughters that way.
At some point we will all get tired of talking about this and say "whats the big deal" but personally I am very pleased that the majority of people are upset. Its nice to know we still have some sense of decency in this country.
I love how these threads just morph....and speaking of burial holes, I was stunned to find, just yersterday, that a legal grave in Mi is only 4' 6" deep.
That's also true now in MS, and probably a lot of other states. Now, back to the subject at hand. My daughter, of all people, emailed me last nite a close up shot of the famous body part. I want you to take a real close look at that jewelry, if you have a chance. This is NOT a pastie as we had earlier been told. Without being indelicate I will tell you that it is a metal ring about the size of a quarter with metal waves radiating all around it so that it looks like a sun and must weigh an ounce or two, with sharp spikes on the tips of the rays. It looks sorta like those things Chinese fighters used to throw at each other. To secure it, again, dancing the line of delicacy so James won't freak, the thing I described is held in place by what looks like a steel pin inserted through a body part. These are the kinds of things I think we have in mind when we discourage jewelry in the manufacturing areas.
Sorry, now we can get back to the depth of graves.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 02-04-04 AT 09:54AM (CST)[/font][br][br]I've thought about this comment since reading it yesterday and I just have to respond.
As far as a man disrespecting a woman in this case, and blaming Justin for his actions, pure hogwash.
Women everywhere are acting like Janet Jackson and using their bodies to get attention. Justin didn't shock Janet, he didn't create this himself. Janet put herself out there and suggested it.
Women can feel offended that Justin ripped Janet's "covering" off and exposed her. You can blame Justin and say this was violent and threatening, it was an act. Nobody forced Janet to go through with it, I can guarantee that.
I'm definitely not a fan of Justin Timberlake, but to see this as an attack is naive. This was staged and will benefit both of them money-wise, regardless of the fines they have to pay. A drop in the bucket.
Okay - was I the only one hacked off by Kid Rock's flag "pullover"? I still believe in treating the flag with reverence - you just don't go cutting holes in it & wearing it like a shirt!
Frankly, the whole half-time show was a joke, but this surely upset me way more than Janet's body piercings.
Supposedly it was an actual flag with a hole cut in it. It has been suggested in the blogosphere that he be prosecuted for desecration of the flag. The whole show was tasteless and an embarrassment. I think Don posted above in this thread that kids can't pray in school but we can broadcast this garbage. It is a bad reflection of where society is headed.
I'll agree with that! I always keep it to myself, but it irks me to no end to see people wearing clothes made of American Flags or that appear to have been. It's disrespectful right up there with using the oval office for the oral office.
Not having seen the half-time show, I can't comment on the flag "pullover" but frankly I don't think patterning items of clothing after a flag is necessarily disrespectful. Sometimes it can be quite the opposite. I have an American flag necktie that I really like and that I get compliments on (and a few snickers). One of the things that makes this country truly free is the fact that we are not so hung up on nationalism or so repressive that we can't express ourselves through speech and actions that others might consider offensive such as flag burning, etc. I don't condone flag burning, but making items from the American flag is a time-honored method of expression and dissent. Anyone remember Abbe Hoffman and his famous American flag shirt? You can buy a Hilfiger knockoff now that is identical.
Bottom line, the flag is a symbol. No more, no less. It represents an ideal that is embodied in each and every one of us. It is not the ideal itself.
I have no problem with flag-patterned items of clothing - I have several myself. However, what Kid Rock did was take an actual American flag, cut a hole in the middle and slip it over his head. To me, that's very different from wearing clothes with a flag pattern or motif.
Flag neckties worn by people who are respectful of others, our country and it's symbols is one thing. Yes, they are worn typically during a holiday such as Independence Day and are meant to show their respect and to honor our country. Beagle, with your background, I would have no problem with you wearing a flag necktie - I would not be the least bit offended. But, I do not respect someone who cuts up an actual flag and makes a poncho, or sews it on to the seat of his pants, or whatever, and is doing it as a show of rebellion. Dissent is an American heritage, but there are limits on how that dissent should be manifested. Disrespect toward the flag is symbolic of disrespect toward our country and its ideals.
It would have been helpful to the discussion had Parabeagle actually seen what he appears to be blindly defending. As was pointed out, we're talking about what appeared to be a genuine American Flag with a hole in the middle where this guy has his head and he's cavorting around on the stage with a silly black fedora pretending to sing. That is disrespectful, albeit while using a symbol.
"Disrespect toward the flag is symbolic of disrespect toward our country and its ideals."
Well said, Ray. And that's precisely my point. In this country, we are free to say what we want, respectful or otherwise, about our government and its institutions - something unheard of in many countries. I would never burn an American flag (or any flag for that matter - probably gives off toxic fumes), and I would never take the flag given to me when I retired from the military and make a poncho out of it. It's too symbolic for me. However, I will defend the rights of the Kid Rocks and the Abbe Hoffmans to do what they want with it. To paraphrase Voltaire, "I disagree with what you do, but will defend to the death your right to do it."
We are certainly free to say what we want - hence freedom of speech. However, there are rules surrounding treatment of the flag(from the Library of Congress):
The flag should not be allowed to touch anything beneath it, like the ground, floor, water, or merchandise.
Neither the flag nor any part of the flag may be used as a costume or athletic uniform.
Never use the flag for apparel, bedding, or drapery.
Although I may be wrong, I don't believe Kid Rock meant to be unpatriotic - it's my thought that he intented just the opposite, however he went about it in the wrong way.
>Although I may be wrong, I don't believe Kid >Rock meant to be unpatriotic - it's my thought >that he intented just the opposite, however he >went about it in the wrong way.
I agree with Yahoo. What I know about Kid Rock is that he is very patriotic and is very supportive of our armed forces.
I also have to say that I was shocked when I saw him wearing that shirt. I then, however, went and got some nachos and a cold beer and forgot about it.
To be honest with you SMace, I've not let any of this Superbowl hoopla keep me up at night, either. I feel sorry for the teams who are getting absolutely no coverage of the terrific game due to all of this baloney.
Sorry, I had to laugh at that, I'm in Boston and for the past few days its been 'All Patriots, all the time...' I hid in my office Tuesday during the parade. It was mayhem here. But I know what you mean, it did take away some of their thunder and I think more people remember Janet's bosom than Vinitieri's field goal that won the game in the last 8 seconds.
Yes, free speech is a foundational right of all Americans, a right not enjoyed in many other countries. But, some of our courts have become really creative in defining speech. Cutting a hole in the flag and wearing could be construed as "making a statement", but it is a stretch to call it speech. The Abbie Hoffmann's can say whatever they please and I would not want that right removed. But, they must also understand they may inspire us quiet conservatives to rise up and become vocal, too. If Kid Rock has the right to wear the flag, or a facsimile, whether as a protest or just plain decoration, I have the right to protest. I see some of this protest as "biting the hand that feeds you". I guess along with the right of free speech comes the right to be a jerk.
Beagle, I'm not sure whether you're revealing a liberal perspective or the perspective of a moderate or conservative who can apply some critical thinking skills to a debate, but either way, I like it!
It must be that Oregon air! I got teary eyed reading the several lessons on the Constitution and the protected right of free speech. I closed my eyes and saw Ray in a Middlesex army uniform, marching, flute in hand, red nickers and white silk stockins, down a Maryland boulevard behind the hoof clatter of General Beagles mare, Ray sidestepping several droppings, not missing a note.
Nobody throughout this discussion has questioned Kid Frock's 'right' to do what he did. Nor was a remark made implying the Constitution or any law had been violated. The comments in opposition were as follows: "Hacked Off", "It irks me", "It's Disrespectful", "Amen", and "I Agree".
Those are five expressions of opinion. Nothing more. All this dancing about, quoting Shakespeare and reciting questionable versions of the Constitution are rather irrelevant, given the fact that the only thing that was raised to begin with were opinions in opposition to what was felt to be distasteful behavior. Let's not overlook the right to that variety of free speech.
'The poor boy meant well'. No he didn't. There was a representative of the VFW on the news who said "The artist was advised during rehearsal of his distateful treatment of the American flag and his response was that he did not care about that".
There >was a representative of the VFW on the news who >said "The artist was advised during rehearsal of >his distateful treatment of the American flag >and his response was that he did not care about >that".
Wow - I hadn't heard that. So much for thinking he at least meant well.
As far as the rest of your comments - well said, DonD!
Comments
I live by the woods and there will be a six foot hole for any guy that has intentions to treat my daughters that way.
At some point we will all get tired of talking about this and say "whats the big deal" but personally I am very pleased that the majority of people are upset. Its nice to know we still have some sense of decency in this country.
Sorry, now we can get back to the depth of graves.
As far as a man disrespecting a woman in this case, and blaming Justin for his actions, pure hogwash.
Women everywhere are acting like Janet Jackson and using their bodies to get attention. Justin didn't shock Janet, he didn't create this himself. Janet put herself out there and suggested it.
Women can feel offended that Justin ripped Janet's "covering" off and exposed her. You can blame Justin and say this was violent and threatening, it was an act. Nobody forced Janet to go through with it, I can guarantee that.
I'm definitely not a fan of Justin Timberlake, but to see this as an attack is naive. This was staged and will benefit both of them money-wise, regardless of the fines they have to pay. A drop in the bucket.
Frankly, the whole half-time show was a joke, but this surely upset me way more than Janet's body piercings.
Anyone?
Bottom line, the flag is a symbol. No more, no less. It represents an ideal that is embodied in each and every one of us. It is not the ideal itself.
Well said, Ray. And that's precisely my point. In this country, we are free to say what we want, respectful or otherwise, about our government and its institutions - something unheard of in many countries. I would never burn an American flag (or any flag for that matter - probably gives off toxic fumes), and I would never take the flag given to me when I retired from the military and make a poncho out of it. It's too symbolic for me. However, I will defend the rights of the Kid Rocks and the Abbe Hoffmans to do what they want with it. To paraphrase Voltaire, "I disagree with what you do, but will defend to the death your right to do it."
The flag should not be allowed to touch anything beneath it, like the ground, floor, water, or merchandise.
Neither the flag nor any part of the flag may be used as a costume or athletic uniform.
Never use the flag for apparel, bedding, or drapery.
Although I may be wrong, I don't believe Kid Rock meant to be unpatriotic - it's my thought that he intented just the opposite, however he went about it in the wrong way.
>Although I may be wrong, I don't believe Kid
>Rock meant to be unpatriotic - it's my thought
>that he intented just the opposite, however he
>went about it in the wrong way.
I agree with Yahoo. What I know about Kid Rock is that he is very patriotic and is very supportive of our armed forces.
I also have to say that I was shocked when I saw him wearing that shirt. I then, however, went and got some nachos and a cold beer and forgot about it.
If we do colonize the moon or mars or wherever it is we are going these days, I nominate the entire Jackson family to be the first to go.
Again, Ray - You summed it up in a nutshell. We live in a free country, warts and all.
I haven't had this much fun since high school debate class. Bet Don really thinks I'm a liberal now. x;-)
Nobody throughout this discussion has questioned Kid Frock's 'right' to do what he did. Nor was a remark made implying the Constitution or any law had been violated. The comments in opposition were as follows: "Hacked Off", "It irks me", "It's Disrespectful", "Amen", and "I Agree".
Those are five expressions of opinion. Nothing more. All this dancing about, quoting Shakespeare and reciting questionable versions of the Constitution are rather irrelevant, given the fact that the only thing that was raised to begin with were opinions in opposition to what was felt to be distasteful behavior. Let's not overlook the right to that variety of free speech.
'The poor boy meant well'. No he didn't. There was a representative of the VFW on the news who said "The artist was advised during rehearsal of his distateful treatment of the American flag and his response was that he did not care about that".
>was a representative of the VFW on the news who
>said "The artist was advised during rehearsal of
>his distateful treatment of the American flag
>and his response was that he did not care about
>that".
Wow - I hadn't heard that. So much for thinking he at least meant well.
As far as the rest of your comments - well said, DonD!