Dress Codes, Are They Sexist

scottorr

Here is my thought, today as I am coming in the front door, there are two women in front of me. Both were wearing sweaters and dress pants. As wondered past the rows of cubes, I noticed that this seems to be very common. I also noticed another thing. All of the men wearing dress shirts and dress pants. It seems to me that women get a lot more latitude with their dress than the men do and just so happens that our dress code was designed by a woman. It appears that what qualifies as a top for women is anything short of a t-shirt but for men it has to be a collared dress shirt. Is this sexist or what? It's cold and I just want to wear a sweater but I can't.

Don D

Surely your dress code will allow a sweater over a collared shirt or over a shirt and tie, if that's the code.

Otherwise Scott, you know the answer to this as you have entered several debates about this subject. Unisex dress codes are not required or desirable.

scottorr

I wore a sweater one day and was asked to remove it by the woman who wrote the dress code. She was polite but to the point "I just thought I would let you know that our dres code specifically says that men should wear a collard dress shirt, and sweaters were not included" and I haven't seen a man wearing a sweater. Mean while she is wearing an uncollard swaeter today. I have to admit, I was a smart ass and mentioned that she was wearing a nice sweater.

deniseE

You can't wear a sweater???? not even over your dress shirt???

Dress codes are much more lax for women....but I will say that showing up for work looking well dressed is easier for a guy. Dress pants, and dress shirt...never go out of style....you'll be fine no matter where you go. Women's clothes tend to be more trendy and can look out-dated in a matter of months!!!

In the summer it seems perfectly acceptable for us to come to work in a sleeveless dress...but I don't imagine that it would be OK for the guys in a sleeveless shirt!!!!

Our dress code is as androgynous as possible...but it favors the guys in terms of ease of meeting the dress code...and the ladies in terms of flexibility!

Rockie

Yes, dress codes are extremely sexist. But, as Denise said it is easier for a man to come to work looking nice. If you look at the way a professional woman dresses, it is very similar in style to what a professional man would wear, i.e, subdued colors, usually a jacket, very limited jewelry.

What I call the "evil garmentos" prey on women's desire to jump on every fad band wagon and spend their money fooishly and indiscriminantly on trendy clothes that quickly go out of fashion. If they spent the same amount of money on a few good quality, substantial items,they would have clothing that could carry them for several years. The tight, hiphugger pants, the "slap-slap" shoes (flipflops), huge, garish prints, capri pants all make an unwritten statement on the person's status in the organization. I can't imagine a female vice president wearing floral capri pants to work, can you?

Anyway...to answer your question about sweaters, generally, they are seen as casual, "folksey, friendly". If your workplace leans towawrds more casual, I see nothing wrong with males wearing sweaters, the same as females. Again, keep in mind ultra conservative environments. I have never seen a male bank executive in a sweater.

rad

Not even a cardigan? If the women are allowed to wear sweaters it sounds like you don't have a business dress code or they'd be in blouses and skirts. Has she given a legitimate reason why you can not wear a sweater over a shirt and tie? Dress codes do have to be geared toward the genders or we'd all be in androgynous suits but all I can say to make you feel better about your situation is - nylons in the summer. Yuck.

ray a

Androgenous suits. Yep, only way to ensure total fairness. One religious system so everyone has the exact same holidays. One flavor of ice cream. It becomes very hard to know where to draw the line of distinction between fairness and silliness. Don't get me wrong Scott, I'm not mocking you. But, in our quest for absolute fairness and equality, we hit many bumps in the road which can send us careening in a different direction if we aren't careful.

All that said, allowing women to wear sweaters and not men, does seem extreme and not quite fair. But, it may come down to the definition of accepted social and business standards. Sweaters for women may be perceived as acceptable in the your business world, but not for men. Would you also wear pantyhose, if allowed?

I am coming to the point where I see dress codes, other than uniforms, as a no-win situation. Fortunately, I can wear sweaters to work, but we tend to be more casual.

Parabeagle

Rise up, Scott! Rise up NOW against the oppressive, imperialist, running dogs intent on breaking your spirit with their arbitrary and capricious rules and regulations! Rise up and say, "I'm mad as h*ll, and I'm not going to take it anymore!!!" Do your best Peter Finch imitation when you say that, though. x;-)

neveradull

I recently read an article about the latest in men,s fashion, wearing skirts (not kilts). So the question is if this becomes popular will panty hose and shaved legs become part of a male dress code? Would the skirt be considered formal business attire or casual dress? How far above the knees would be allowed? Oh I get a head ache just thinking about it!

rad

Men in skirts? x:o All I can think of are the guys who take up two spots on the train because they are sitting with their legs wide open... they will have to be taught to cross at the ankle. x:-)

ray a

OK Rad, you've seen the Men of the Forum calendar haven't you? Which one of us would you most like to see in a skirt?

rad

Thats a tough choice, Ray. So many men, it can overwhelm a single gal like me. But I must confess I'd especially love to see how Don handles riding on his bike in a skirt. I can just see him, riding around with the skirt hiked up and blowing around. I've done it (as a passenger), its not easy.

ray a

You realize Rad, if you ever post your picture now any guy who reads your post above will have something else in mind.

rad

Whatever do you mean Ray? x0:) Seriously, it was kind of fun watching heads turn but I felt like I was in a ZZ Top video. Scary too though, if I ever fell my legs were completely unprotected. And it was kind of hard to keep my feet on the foot rests in heels.

mwild31

Hi scott - I don't think dress codes are sexist. I think the people that write ineffective ones are dumb. Maybe if the guys at your place of employment starting doing jumping jacks to stay warm, they might rethink the code.

Don D

Don't you be knocking jumping jacks, MWild! We require a 7 minute exercise in our plant areas at shift change, and that includes JUMPING JACKS. This has been a requirement here for three years and was put in place with our wellness, ergonomics initiatives. Do I need to remind you again that it's time to post a profile? What if you are really Pork in drag and we don't know it?

Parabeagle

Hey, Don. Give Mwild a break. She's ex-Air Force and therefore worthy of special consideration. x;-)

ray a

I don't know, Don. I think you and Mwild are twins separated at birth. Beagle and I may look alike, but you two act alike. x;-)

mwild31

x:-)

I thought I had a profile on there - I'll double check & rectify the situation if it's not.

Dearest Don - In no way was I disparaging jumping jacks - quite the opposite - they warm you up & get the blood going - maybe if the dress code writer saw all the men doing jumping jacks at one time, they would reconsider the sweater.

Parabeagle - thank you for coming to my defense - your five bucks is in the mail x;-)

Finally, xx( I am not Don, I am not Don, I am not Don....
(not that there is anything wrong with that x;-))

Don D

I wonder if anyone noticed "The Twin" disappeared and MWild's responses increased.

Lola815

Sweaters already! I'm still in 90 degree heat wearing sandles. Were I work there really isn't much of a dress code other than no shorts, sweats, no holes in your clothes. Our dressing up consists of the company golf shirt and dockers. That really doesn't seem right that you can't wear a sweater if you want to and the women can. Bring a sweater to work with you and put it on when the lady who wrote the dress code is wearing hers and when she asks you to remove yours, you tell her you will when she removes hers. x:-)

scottorr

Some times I think some of our policies are q little quirky. We allow body art to be displayed so long as the ee doesn't have conatct with customers but sweaters are a "no no"! Maybe I will attach one of my sweaters to a nosering with a chain, then I'll be able to wear my sweater. The insanity, it kills me.

marc

Of course dress codes are sexist. This is an area our company struggles with every year, especially late spring and all through the summer. We have 55 ees, 51 are women. Our dress code was written by a womean 3 years ago, and I refuse to amend it. It basically states the ees should use good judgement to dress appropriately and maintain high standards of personal hygiene and grooming. (Examples of questionable clothing for the workplace may include but are not limited to, short tops, spaghetti straps, cut-off shorts, short shorts, t-shirts with non-company slogans, any clothing with rips and holes, etc.) This policy gets stretched out of shape on a frequent basis. Our youth outreach personnel dress so as to not alienate their clients - which includes ripped jeans, cut-offs, short tops, etc. Some supervisors do not allow skirts or dresses that are too short and once in a while, one of the guys will wear cut-offs. I know I am a coward for not addressing this issue - but I admit it and invite any of our other managers to please step in and do their best.

Don D

With all this discussion of unisex arrangements, I'm still trying to picture Ray and Beagle in flowered capris.

ray a

How did you know I have a pair? Should I send a picture?

sonny

Yeah, can't see the capris doing much for the (BROWN) flight jacket

ray a

Sonny, I have it on good authority that Beagle wears his special black leather jacket with his flowered capris.

sonny

Oh geez, closes your eyes and get the visual. .

WOCO Frank

Several years ago, I drafted a "casual Friday" policy for a company that had a fairly rigid IBM-type dress code for its men, but a far less rigid code for its women. For example... Men: Ties, jackets, long-sleeved white dress shirts. Jackets had to be put on when you went to another floor or outside(it was a 12-floor office building). Women: Dresses or slacks, blouses or sweaters. Hose required.

At an introductory meeting in the employee lunchroom I was set upon by a pack of angry female employees outraged at the casual Friday policy. Their issue? The policy didn't relax the code as much for women as it did for men. I responded that it was because women already had a fairly relaxed dress code. They agreed with the premise, but it didn't placate them. We ended up abandoning the casual Friday change because women started coming in wearing spandex and warmup suits. It was easier to scrap it than to fight that battle.

ray a

Mentioning IBM brings back memories. I remember one day in 1965 my dad coming home from work (IBM) all excited because they relaxed the dress code and he was ging shopping after dinner. Up to then, he had to wear a long sleeved white shirt - no other color was acceptable for professionals then. With the change they could then wear light blue or light beige long sleeved shirts. I think it was just those 2 colors plus white, only. I worked at IBM the summer of 1972. The guy who ran my machine on 1st shift was an old timer who every day wore gray dress pants, white shirt and tie to work, changed in the locker room into work clothes, changed back at lunch to walk the avenue, changed again for the afternoon, then put on his good clothes and left the building with his attache case to go home. Every day ritual. I wore jeans, t-shirts and sneakers.

Parabeagle

Actually, I do have a black leather lambskin jacket - but I don't think it would go well with my capris. And they're paisley, not flowered, by the way.