How vulnerable are we?

In an earlier post, I described a conversation I had with an employee. This employee called making threats because of a written warning he received. Because of these threats and past history I am terminating him this morning.

All weekend I thought about what I had to do Monday morning. Noone looks forward to this unpleasant part of the job. Not only that but I got to thinking about the vulnerable position human resource employees are in especially after hearing about the two recent incidents where an employee killed a number of co-workers.

As a human resource administrator I enjoy offering jobs, training and promoting employees and overall helping others but part of my job calls for disciplining when warranted and sometimes even terminating employment.

The reason for this post is to ask if any of you think about or worry about the possibility of a current or former employee going "postal"? And if so, how do you deal with it?

Comments

  • 18 Comments sorted by Votes Date Added
  • Yes, I certainly do think about this - the HR person seems often to be the second to go, right after the immediate supervisor.

    My office is down a small hallway right off the plant floor, with only one means of egress. An angry employee or former employee would have to pass by two supervisor's offices to get to mine, but then again, the supervisors are rarely in their offices. The best I've been able to come up with so far is an emergency whistle, which I keep hanging on the bulletin board next to my desk, and the mace I carry on my key ring. However, these aren't going to be much help if I'm staring down the barrel of a gun.

    We have a code we use on the paging system if there's anything that seems to be going wrong - we page "EDNA" to come to whatever area is affected - EDNA stands for "Emergency Developing - Need Assistance". We also have security photo ID badges, and the receptionist has access to pull up the ID pictures and familiarize herself with any former employees we think we might need to watch out for.

    Finally, we're fortunate to be only a block away from the local police precinct.

    It's sad to have to think in these terms, but I guess it's necessary in this day and age.
  • Absolutely. A couple of years ago we had an ee who started making threats to his supervisor. Coworkers told us he liked to talk about his former employer saying he wanted to kill his managers and shoot his kids. He talked about his arsenal of guns at home including automatic weapons. His talk was starting to scare people. It came to a head when he threatened to come back and "blow away" management if he did not get the shift he wanted.

    We immediately called the Sheriff's dept - they are right next door to us. They sent 2 plain clothes detectives over for protection when we fired the ee. They were positioned in the lobby across from the door leading to the hallway. Right across from the lobby is a conference room. We had the ee come to the conference room, we positioned ourselves between the door and him and informed him he was terminated. I had to do the talking. We instructed him to leave the premises immediately and we would mail his possessions. He did leave after proclaiming his innocence. The detectives followed him discretely out of town and to the state border. He lived across the border in PA. We hired security guards from the Sheriff's dept for 2 weeks - they were on our premises 24/7.

    All went well, but we were prepared for the worst.
  • Years ago a fellow employee of mine began harassing me at work. He also began video taping my every move around the store I worked in as a manager (He was a memeber of loss prevention and ran the cctv system)When numerous videos were found (by a judge and a police officer during a shoplifting trial), He was immediatly terminated and trespassed from the store. He than began to threaten me at work, home, school, etc., saying he was going to kill me for costing him his job. He would wait for me outside the store and follow me around town. I had to get restraining orders, court dates, etc., and be escorted every day in and out of work.

    I know this is a different case, but it definitly made me more aware of my surroundings, and if any employee begins to threaten another, I take that very seriously. I know how I felt, and I would never wish for that feeling for anyone else. Some people may say something in the heat of the moment, and quite frankly, you just never know whether someone is capable of following through.
  • The only time it ever bothers me to terminate someones employment is for a lay-off, re-org etc where the ee hasn;t done anything. Terminations for disciplinary actions have no affect on me at all. I had one ee throw his keys at me. Several make some sort of racial remark, lots of you'll here from my lawyer but never any real violence. Here is the question if confronted by an angry ee who appears intent on doing you bodily harm how far would you go to protect yourself or staff?
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 07-14-03 AT 09:10AM (CST)[/font][p]As far as terminations go, I can never get used to them. I have done several in my day but I always disliked them. The only time I am not uncomfortable is with gross misconduct.

    I think about this all the time because of the high pressure environment that we work in. Although our security is extremely tight and once someone is termed they can not getting back into the building. My problem is active ees who are under great stress. They have access to our buildings. Last year we had our EAP program come in and do a presentation about anger management. Over all I thought it was good. Generally we look for warning signs like increased agitation or threats. We recently requested that an ee with a known mental illness get evaluated and sure enough that ee is now on FMLA.
  • I'm not 70 miles from the Lockheed incident of last Tuesday morning. This is always a concern. With apologies to the US Postal Service, there's no way to "predict postal". It was a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation with firing or retaining the guy in the most recent situation. There was a union involved and progressive discipline, including mandatory anger management was employed, and supposedly successful. In my last job, I had to terminate a guy who was zapped constantly on pain meds and took his weekly paycheck 'to the boats', which here means the supposed riverboat gaming establishments. I tried unsuccessfully to hook him up with counseling and even psychiatric help. When he exhausted FMLA and would not return, I took the opportunity to recommend termination. When I initially suspended him and placed him on FMLA, he was wild eyed and wouldn't leave the parking lot until we had the police come. We had a cardlock system and everybody on alert for months. Still, absoultely nothing, NOTHING, gives us enough comfort to feel protected before or after a termination like that. We had a firearms policy that would have gotten me fired had they known I immediately put a pistol in my desk drawer. Still, I probably couldn't have gotten it out fast enough. Now we know how cops on routine patrol must feel every night of their life. Absolutely no level of building security or training videos or ethics training or protective orders or emergency plans can save our life if the right degree of 'urge' is out there. Opportunity and motive are dangerous, patient things.
  • We are very vulnerable as HR people. I'll never forget a few years ago, we lost a member of our SHRM group due to a shooting. Payroll had gotten a notice from the federal government to garnish the employee's wages due to non-payment of taxes. This guy came in and blew away the HR Director, the Payroll Manager and a couple of other people before he was subdued. These people did not do anything to the employee - they were following orders from the government.

    I used to work at a hospital that was across the street from the main hospital building. This set up was similar to a doctor's office where employees came into the front door and talked to a receptionist (behind glass). No one could get back into the HR area without being buzzed back. We also had several exit doors into our parking lot. This was probably the most secure HR environment I had ever worked in, but was almost the most remote from the employees.

    You can never predict what a violent employee might do. The best advice is to take all threats seriously, notify your security and/or local police department. You can surmise they are blowing off steam, but you never know when someone will act on his words. Always have another management team member with you and try to have an "easy out" by being next to a door, etc. Even with all this, if a person brings in a gun, you probably wouldn't have a prayer of getting out in time.

    I don't blame you a bit Don for having a pistol in your drawer, but it's really sad when our society has come to this, isn't it?
  • My boss and I were on very high alert last summer when we were going through the union decertification. Our offices are in the warehouse completely surrounded by windows. Our backs used to be to the windows. One day my boss came out and told me to turn my desk around and face the windows. That's how tense it got. The "union boys" were in the parking lot every day trying scare tactics on the employees on what would happen if the union left here. There were some employees who had been here for 15-20 years and had always been protected by the union. We really felt it might all blow up in our faces. Employees were fighting with other employees - union vs. non-union. Productivity was very low, you could cut the tension with a knife. As Don stated before, my boss also broke the rules and had a fire arm on premise. He also wanted me to learn how to use it. It was all very scary.

    We now have an ex-ee who quit, then called to say he wanted his job back. We told him no the first time. After that we have not returned his phone calls. He keeps leaving really nasty voice mail messages on my phone and his managers phone in the middle of the night and you can tell he's drunk. Then the next day he will send an e-mail apologizing for his voice mail and says it will never happen again. Well, it always does. So, my boss now has that bad thing in his desk again.

    It's funny how HR can go from one extreme to the other. You can make people really happy by giving them a job or giving them more benefits, etc. But, you can also make people really angry with the discipline they feel they don't deserve or worse yet by terminating someone. It is a very vulnerable position.

  • Your concerns are, as others have said, justified, but it's part of the job, and you take what precautions you can and get on with life. I've had two situations that bothered me: One individual actually ended up going out on permanent disability, but while he was here, and in the discplinary process, gave me the name 'Terminator'. He cut out the name 'Terminator' from some toy box he bought and sent it to me along with other 'crazy' drawings, etc. He showed up one day with a fanny pack that I was unaccoustomed to him wearing after he had left employment. That concerned me enough to have second and third thoughts, but he eventually moved a couple of states away and I started sleeping better.
    A second individual actually parked in the end of my driveway for several minutes the day we terminated him (it's a 300 foot drive), then later that evening called me to 'hope I was able to sleep that night'. I called the Sheriff's office that evening, but there's not much they could do, and I knew that, having been a police officer in an earlier life. They actually did end up taking him to jail that night for a domestic disturbance, but I didn't know that at the time. He only lived a half mile from me, and it took a while for that situation to get resolved. I did feel better after I found out that his new address was our state prison. : )
    Good Luck. Things will work out, but do take reasonable precautions.
  • The dirty deed is done. It wasn't pleasant but it could have been worse. He didn't scream, yell or make any threatening remarks. He was calm which in itself could be frightening.

    As someone said, we just need to do our jobs which unfortunately isn't too fun sometimes. I'm not one to worry about things that may or may not happen, but this weekend I was playing the "what if" game and it scared me a little.

    I realize that we can't live our lives inside a bubble and there is danger all around us. In fact, every time we get into a motorized vehicle we put ourselves at risk. I learned long ago to enjoy every minute the good Lord gives me and it doesn't pay to worry. Yes, it's a good idea to take precautions and to be aware of your surroundings but damn it if I'm going to let another individual hold me hostage by keeping me in fear.




  • I have dealt with disciplinary problems (warnings, suspensions, terminations) and been verbally threatened. Fortunately, it only has been verbal. I saw the Twin Towers go down from my office. As a New Yorker, we are constantly under some alert. Cannot go to too many places without seeing either the police or National Guard. As a result, I am always more aware of my surroundings. My company has always had a lot of security and "awareness" program. However, that hasn't prevented the very rare occasion of an employee attacking a manager with their fists. That's been the worst of it.

    The end result is that life goes on. I cannot live my life worrying about things I cannot control. The biggest change I have made in life is to end every conversation with my kids, parents and other close relatives with "I love you."
  • When I worked for the large hospital system I had to assist with terminations and disciplinary actions to ensure they were done correctly.

    A few stand out. The scariest one was a male courier who had access to a lot of different departments. I helped meet with him when we had various complaints and helped him get into EAP. The termination came when he made a gun hand and pointed at the department secretary and said, "When I come in gunning, you'll go first." During the termination, we had a plainclothes policeman outside the office. My boss, the director of hr had planned to assist with the termination, but the employee said he couldn't listen to her, he NEEDED me. I went to the department, explained everything to him, got in touch with his psychiatrist (pre HIPAA Days!) and he left. However, he started calling me - wanting to know what went wrong, how could he fix it, how could I help him. He seemed fixated on me and would often drive down my street, but I don't think he knew for sure which house I was in. Unfortunately, I had just separated from my husband so my child and I were all alone. Pretty scary.
    He as arrested for assualt of his wife and child a little while later. I hadn't thought of this man for a while until about 3 months ago I ran into him at Wal-Mart. He picked up right where he left off, wanting to know about me and why I wasn't at the hospital any more. Thankfully, I was with a male friend (who is 6'5")and I answered minimal stuff and GOT THE H... OUT OF THERE.

    You don't know these days and that's what is scary.






  • I recommend people in these situations not respond even to the minimal stuff. Mentally unstable people who try to engage others in conversation really 'get off' and receive receive positive feedback when 'we' respond to them with little courtesies like responding to the small questions and letting them engage us through eye contact, our continued physical presence, answers to their questions, questions of our own, smiles, and a variety of other signals we send them without intending to. For those of you who have a 6'5" friend with you, nod at that friend as a request for them to respond to the offender. For those of you who don't, walk away briskly, do not look back at him and head for a secure area, certainly not a parking lot nor a bathroom. If the offender touches you, I hope you have practiced the art of crotch-kick.
  • Good answer Don. Back in the late 80's when I was a manufacturing manager, I started receiving death threats against me and my children at home and a bomb threat. They were left on my front porch at home. Long story short, the perp (twerp) was identified and arrested. She was protecting her boyfriend who she thought was being treated unfairly by me. I'm sure the boyfriend was in on it or at least knew it. A few weeks after it was resolved, I heard a voice behind me at the bank, it was the boyfriend. He tried to strike up a conversation, but I was very short and gave simple yes or no answers to his questions. He later told someone I acted afraid of him. I said, it wasn't fear - more loathing. A couple of years later, it may have 5 years - my wife and I were in the mall and we walked right past the both of them. I stiffened immediately and my wife asked what was wrong. I had to leave the mall immediately. I had made eye contact with her as she passed and a deep feeling of hatred swept over me. I have never had that feeling before or since. My wife is not 6'5", so it was up to me to deal with it.
  • I responded just a few minutes ago, before seeing your decision to fire. You ARE doing the right thing, not only for your company but for your employees.

    Several years ago, while working at a very large plant, I had to assist in terminating an employee I would term "whacko". He stood outside the gate that afternoon threatening to come back with an uzzi to take me out - not his supervisor, mind you, me!

    A week later we held a grievance meeting. I requested the security group to send me a guard who could "protect me", not one who could be blown over by a gust of wind. They sent me a guard who in his off time was training to be a professional body builder. He patted the ex-employee down at the gate, then stood behind his chair in the meeting with his eyes boring into the ex-employee's skull. The Union thanked me later for protecting them.

    At another plant we fired an employee for threatening to blow up the building. He told his Union steward, she told me. Again, he was patted down at the gate for his grievance meeting and the later arbitration. I think the arbitrator ruled in our favor because the Business Agent made such a deal about searching a mad bomber for weapons.
  • Our HR is on the second floor of a casino. Individuals have to pass through a Security ID check to get to us.

    I recently had an employee who threatened his shift manager with God - as in God will get anyone who is being unfair to me. How this would occur is something else indeed, but he continued to tell anyone who would listen that this would happen.

    We checked into it, he admitted it to investigations, who convinced him it was time to resign (he told them he was leaving at the end of the month anyway.) Payroll calls me the next day, and he'd called wanting his paycheck. I told her I know it was a resignation, but please cut the check and lets be done with this guy. So she says, "Shall I tell him to pick it up in HR?" No, absolutely not, downstairs at the Security Desk will be just fine!
  • Everyone on the second floor appreciated it!
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