Prayer Meetings

We have a manager that holds prayer meetings in her office each day. Some of her employees join in and they pray out loud (with the door shut).

I know we have to accommodate religious beliefs; but we are concerned that other employees that chose not to pray or even be at these meetings will feel left out or not as favorable as those that do go to meetins.

We just want them to stop before anyone makes a formal complaint. We don't want any concepts that this is a religious discrimination claim.

What would you recommend?


Comments

  • 27 Comments sorted by Votes Date Added
  • It depends on the religion. If they are muslim I believe you have to make accomodations for them to pray. I think they need to look a certain dircetion and it can be done on there break time. I know of know legally required accomodation for a prayer meeting. I would not allow it.

    The pickle you get in is if you allow it for one group you have to allow it for any group.
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 06-21-06 AT 10:57AM (CST)[/font][br][br]we have a group that meets in front of our bldg before 8:00. The city has a monument out front so it's actually across the street on public property. We asked that they move out there instead of our break room b/c we were getting complaints. Other ee's felt uncomfortable going in there while they met. They don't meet every day though, I think it's monthly. Every day seems a little excessive to me, especially in her office. I would ask them to find a more neutral location (off iste) and to meet before the shift starts. You didn't mention how long it lasts, but the ones here were about 15 min.
    What you do for one, you do for all.
  • We had a similar situation last year, a manager-led group that met for bible study on their lunch hour in our canteen. Since they were not on work time, we didn't feel like we could prohibit it. On the other hand, some of this manager's non-Christian employees felt that they would receive less favorable treatment because they did not participate in the manager's bible study group. We were ready to counsel the manager that while he was entitled to a reasonable amount of religious expression at work, he was using very poor judgment to risk creating a situation where an ee could claim religious favoritism. Fortunately, he figured this out for himself.

    In your situation, if these prayer meetings are being held during paid work time, I would disallow them. Again, ees do have some religious expression rights at work, but you do not (in my opinion) need to allow prayer meetings on work time any more than you allow people to hold a PTA meeting or play bridge while they're getting paid. If the prayer meetings aren't being held during working hours, I would counsel the manager as I state above.

    I hope you'll keep us informed on this one!
  • We allow employees to use company conference rooms during lunch hours to have group meetings, baby showers, etc. One group that meets on a pretty regular basis for the past several years is a bible study group. It is not lead by any management and being in the conf. room is on common ground and behind closed doors. Any employees are welcome to join if they want and we've never had any complaints.
  • On the last Friday of each month I think all of our ee's are praying that we'll ship everything scheduled.

    I would address this with the manager making her understand she is creating the appearance of favoritism, as others have said. She is creating two groups or classes of people, those who participate and those who don't and those who don't will wonder if it will effect their next evaluation or raise or opportunity for promotion.

    SMace's comment that if Muslim, they would have to be granted an accomodation. That in itself is unfair treatment. I'm not condemning SMace for saying it, just commenting on the fairness of established law, or the application.
  • No, I don't think it is unfair at all. It is my understanding that if you are muslim (maybe it is just a certain sect, I don't know) it is a REQUIRMENT that you pray X # of times a day towards the east (or west, I don't know). If you don't allow it you are restricting their right of religious freedom.

    I know of no requirement for prayer meetings.

    It's not unfair. It is allowing people to pratice the fundamental requirements of their religion.
  • Interestingly, Smace, the requirement to pray five times daily is not mentioned in the Koran. Its apparently a teaching of Mohammed.

    The Bible, on the other hand, has several verses that admonish followers of Christ to "Pray unceasingly" (1 Thess. 5:17) and to "Pray on all occasions with all kinds of requests and prayers." (Eph. 6:18)

    Apparently, Muslims are also excused from paying five times a day if they have a reasonable excuse.

    So I dont understandt the distinction between a Muslim who believes prayer is a fundamental part of practicing his or her religion and a Christian who believes the same way.


  • The difference as I understand it, is legal. The courts have decided it is a reasonable accomodation. That comes from the HR perspective not the Christian perspective.
  • SMace, my understanding is the same as Paul's. With the Muslims it is a recommendation. We have practicing Muslims working here and they do not bow to the east and pray 5 times a day, though the one woman does wear her Middle Eastern dress on special days in observance of her religious requirements. But, they very well may pray silently while working to fulfill their religious duties.

    Your last sentence in your first post above really puts the problem in a nutshell, allowing some to have formal prayer time and not others creates a pickle.
  • Exactly, we have the courts deciding what the "requirements" of one faith over another. That should bother everybody.
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 06-21-06 AT 02:01PM (CST)[/font][br][br]Who should decide it then? Employment law is decided by the courts if the ee and er don't agree.

    You've decided it should bother me. Should that bother me?

    edit:
    To expound further, courts are not deciding what requirements are more important. They are deciding the effect of those requirements on business. Does it disrupt it or not? Muslim prayer can be done quietly on breaks. A prayer meeting can cause problems because of a variety of reasons. One of which is you must allow all religions to have meetings.

  • I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying about Muslim prayer. As I said, I really didn't know. What I was trying to say is you cannot forbid the Muslims from praying (as they are recommended) if it does not cause undue hardship. I can't cite a case, but my guess is the courts have made the determination that it is not undue hardship.

    You can forbid people from holding prayer meetings in your facility.


  • I'd encourage the manager to hand off the Prayer Leader duties to a non-management employee, and move the meetings to a more management-neutral location.
  • My advice would be ask the prayer group to meet before or after work hours and to ensure that it is clearly communicated that participation is voluntary.

  • We don't allow religious groups to meet on company time.

    I once worked for a bank where one supervisor held these meetings in her office. Even though they were before hours, the employees who did not want to participate felt compelled to do so because she would think of them as a "heathen" and treat them differently than the others.
    We advised her to stop holding them for this reason. Of course, we were then the "heathen".

    It's probably better to have these off site if employees wish to form this type of group.

    As far as the Muslim question, we have Muslims working with us and none have ever asked for a religious accomodation to pray five times a day. I'm not sure what the prayer would involve except facing Mecca. It could probably be done silently and not a big deal to either employee or employer.


  • We have many Muslims working all over the country at our locations. Every single one has asked for the prayer accommodation and we have had to comply. We obtained confirmation from their religious leader as to the "requirement". We were always told that it is required vs. an option, as I think I am reading from previous posts above. We have contacted our attorneys. The answer is always the same. We must accommodate.
  • I think the requirement for Muslims to pray five times a day depends on which sect they belong to: Shia or Sunni (or one of the hundreds of other little ones spun off from these two). Just like some forms of fundamental Christianity believe in constantly praying, versus others that don't require anything outside of church on Sundays.

    I don't think I'd want to get in the midst of an interdenominational or interfaith squabble in the workplace - wars have started over this type of disagreement! If you can give the accommodation without undue hardship, do it. But treat it like any other accommodation - do your research and be prepared to assess what the employee provides as evidence that the practice is required.
  • I would require that the prayer meetings are during non-work hours. Being a Christian-if my supervisor came to me and said "You cannot pray during work hours b/c it might cause uneasiness in other employees that do not want to pray" I would understand, as a Christian, and not want to alienate others. Christians are role models for Christ and that trickles over to actions as well as words.
    I hope the Manager will understand and feel this way.
    That being said-employers need to be fair across the board and if an accomodation is needed (Muslim), I think there are REASONABLE ones and those that just aren't able to be accomodated due to hardships on the business, as with other areas.
  • Playing the devil's advocate (pardon the expression) if a group of Christian employees came to you and said the office christmas party which gets a little wild made them "uneasy", would you do away with it?

    I just dont understand why a voluntary prayer meeting makes people so uneasy. Furthermore, should a slight level of discomfort which is entirely subjective dictate what we allow our employees to do and not do.

    Work is part of life and so is spirituality. As long as the organizational goals are not compromised, individual differences are respected, and all participation is voluntary, why not allow employees to gather for prayer if they desire?

    What is so SCARY about allowing a little spirituality into the workplace assuming its not coercive or antagonistic?


  • On my part, it's the whole fuzzy "separation of church and state" thing - we work for the government. Condoning or sponsoring an event or activity of one religion while not creating or permitting an equivalent activity or event for another is prohibited, so why allow any type of religious practice at work?

    I contend that spirituality and work should be kept separate, not joined together just because they're both a "part of life". And my defense is that the choice of spirituality can be affected by coercion, and because of this, people can also be antagonistic about their choices. Why would I deliberately create an environment that enables or fosters a conflict that could actually damage business?
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 06-22-06 AT 04:35PM (CST)[/font][br][br]To answer your question, Paul, I wouldn't cancel the Christmas party or disallow the prayer group if each of them were held during non-working hours. I wouldn't allow either one on work time for the same reason I don't allow people to have a tupperware party when they're supposed to be working. I am in a state government setting, and it's against the law to use state resources (which includes employee work time) for personal purposes.

    However, I also stick by my earlier comment that even if the prayer meeting, bible study, or whatever is before or after work or at lunchtime, it's poor professional judgment for a manager to put him or herself in the position of having their ees thinking they might favor one employee's religion over another. Though attendance might be "voluntary," we also don't allow people to work overtime "voluntarily" because we can't be sure they aren't being subtly coerced.

    You're correct that we cannot simply make decisions on what to allow or not allow based on the squeaky wheels of discomfort or unease.


  • Both are great answers. Again, I am just asking a question. I have worked so long for a non-profit religious organization that I dont really know what other environments are like and why something that seems pretty innocuous could cause such alarm.

    A group of employees who wants to pray together could gather at Denny's at 7:30 a.m. before work just as easily as meeting in a conference room.

    Assuming its not a group of Denny's employees..
  • And, Paul (and everyone else), you have my apologies if my responses sound abrasive. I guess I'm coming from the opposite side. I'm not religious in any manner ("agnostic"), and I'm working in an environment where there isn't [b]supposed[/b] to be any religion, but there is religion where I work. I've been told I'll be prayed for at raise time, and been advised that "He" has a plan for me, by co-workers AND supervisors.

    I personally do feel uncomfortable at holiday gatherings where everyone - literally - is told to bow their heads and thank the Lord for the bountiful food and ask Jesus to bless the hands that prepared it (we do potluck) and we should all be ashamed if we're not truly thankful for what we have. We have an atheist employee who leaves the room at prayer time; I'm considering doing the same. But if I do, would it damage my supervisors' perceptions of me? "The heathen can't even stand still a few moments out of respect?" Our atheist isn't the most popular or respected employee... I can just imagine the turmoil if I were a practicing Jew or Buddhist!
  • Atrimble,

    You didnt come across as abrasive. I am all for passionate debate as long as it doesn't get personal. I know I can come across negatively at times when I certainly don't mean to.

    Your situation is interesting. I would put that in the "coercive" category. You are being asked to participate in something involuntarily.

    The comments "I'll pray for you" or "God has a plan for you" could be annoying but I wouldn't call them antagonistic unless they are repeated frequently or if you have made it clear that those kinds of comments are not welcomed.

    One of my favorite verses is I Peter 3:15 "Always be prepared to give a reason for the hope you have when asked but do so with gentleness and respect."

    It sounds like gentleness and respect hasn't always been your experience.
  • I understand the desire to separate work and spirituality for business convenience like separation of church and state. What you are really asking is for no overt demonstrations of spirituality like a prayer meeting. However, we do want other things like employees not lying, not stealing, and working to give us our money's worth. In a larger sense, you cannot separate spirituality from work or day to day life. An employee's personal beliefs are what drives that person and control what sort of ethics will be exercised on a day to day basis. The employer does want the fruits of religious teachings and a high moral standard and, if so, we cannot expect to totally separate spirituality from business life.
  • WT, my husband said the same thing last night. I told him I work ethically because I want to keep my job. I therefore adhere to the policies and procedures established in order to run a successful business. I'm sure most of those policies were created from precepts in the bible, including the golden rule, but in actuality most of those written codes of conduct can be traced back to Hamurabi's code, which wasn't particularly religion-based. I feel that if I let my beliefs affect my business decisions, then I am probably not being fair to someone. I trust in the laws and policies, and let administrative judges dictate employment morals. I'm not particularly concerned with why my co-workers come to work every day and perform their jobs. I'm just concerned that they [i]do[/i] come to work and perform their jobs. (I know, I know: I just recreated that utopia called Automaton City.)
  • Would you also stop at a stop sign at 2:00 in the morning with nobody around? Would you steal if there was absolutely no way to get caught? If so, you have personal ethics and beliefs that drive your behavior above and beyond fear of punishment. The true measure of a man or a woman is what the choose to do when they may do as they wish.

    Sorry, but we do not work diligently at our jobs just to keep a job. There are more than ample amounts of employees who do just barely enough to get by but will never be shining stars. Employers will never be able to fire all those lukewarm performers as there are just too many of them. For every one that gets the axe, a dozen stay on.

    As for my comment, I will admit to having just a little fun at the expense of the forum. Employers are just like everyone else wanting the best of all worlds. What employers seem to want today are "stealth Christians". Live by the Book, never lie or steal, submit to authority in the work place, do all things heartily as unto the Lord and work with all your might on whatever your hand finds to do, but never give any indication of who you are or what you believe lest you give offense to others.
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