FORUM MEMBERS: I choose to open a new post for the previous one got cluttered with personal issues.

The other post did, however, lay out the basis for this post.

I have just returned from the executing an administrative suspension (IAW company policy) with the individual hired after the MOU was signed. The Nonconfirmation of the "Work Permit and SSN data". The I-9 data did not match, so I executed the suspension and provided the individual with the computer generated letter. The DHS (Department of Homeland Security)document provided the individual with the necessary information on which to contest the DHS indentified mis-match of the data. He now has 8 Federal Government working days to get the actions started to correct which ever data bank (DHS or SSA) is in error.

Should he return with information, which indicates he has formally protested and the review is underway, we will have the documentation on hand which shows why we have put this person back to work, while the action is in process.

Upon this employee providing us with new data or documentation, we will initiate a 2nd verification of the I-9 with corrected information attached. At the conclusion of the 2nd verification, we will seek to close the file and this case.

The I-9 is then on file w/amendments and the chain of events will demonstrate, that we have done what needed to be done to protect the worker and this company (as represented by my associate and me in our actions to hire employees entitled to work in our country)from wrongful hiring or termination practices.

I will up-date all when the next step unfolds. We wait now for the foreign national to act on his determination that our government's data bank is wrong! Which according to some of our members, is flawed and not to be trusted.

If the suspended employee does not act, then he will be terminated and the documentation to support that action is, currently, in a suspense file waiting for the date to arrive, which will be May 27, 2005.

Sure it takes a little longer, but we will have a "document trail" to defend our actions. I can no longer write that "we have no way to validate an I-9". In my discussions with the DHS staff today, I was informed that this program is still designated as a test/a pilot program and it is now open to any private employer, who wish to get on-board. All of you can wait for me to be the GOAT, but if you choose you can follow my previous post for the information to accomplish what I have already taken some heat from our members. Ole PORK, might be slow but the "BULLDAWG" in me just will not give way to any "REBEL".

PORK: Another Blessed Day for me and I hope for you.


  • 10 Comments sorted by Votes Date Added
  • Pork,

    I only have three words for you: YOU'VE BEEN CHALLENGED!

    See the Hrharhar(sp?) thread for my open challenge to you. Will you step-up to the plate? Will you finally put your money where your mouth is? Are you willing to stop writing checks that your a** can't cash?

    Time will tell.
  • TN HR: Sorry, but I have never gone to that file, I am strictly business, and if you have something of value you should use this thread or private e-mail, which most viewers would probably prefer you to use.

  • Pork,

    You can run but you can't hide. You thought you'd be able to weasel your way out of this one by claiming never to go on the other thread. Well, here is the challenge:

    This is going to be simple. In order to prove to you how worthless this I-9 Online Verification program isI challenge you to the following. The only caveat is that you must be willing to participate and report your findings TRUTHFULLY. Screen prints from our computers should be mantained if we need to verifify the authenticity of any claims. I will take the challenge as well. We will each run verifications on each other.

    1-We will provide each other with all of the following factual data about ourselves:

    Full name

    2-We will list each other as I-551 Permanent Residents and enter A# 123456789. (obviuosly false info)

    If you get an "Uncomfirmed, Contact DHS" which you should since this is how the illegals do it then I will make a $1000 donation towards your next company function.

    If, on the other hand, you get "Employment Authorized", then you have to make the $1000 donation toward my company's next function.

    The losing party must also be willing to concede, on this forum, the failure of the SAVE basic pilot.

    Do we have a deal? Are you ready to put-up or shut-up? Do you accept the challenge?

  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 05-23-05 AT 03:04PM (CST)[/font][br][br]TN HR: I do not accept this challange, I have already explained that the system does not check A# information if we are US Citizens, there is no A# number required. So for you to test me and I test you with US Citizen information, is acknowledged to produce an authorization to employ.

    That I have admitted the SSN verification has been compromized, but when linked to the Work Permit and the SSA data bank you will get a DHS non-confirmed every time.

    Tell you what I will do though, is, I will give this information to the SAVE staff and have them exercise the system in order to discover the flawed system and to plug the hole. Keep your money it is more important to get the system fixed.

    Now do you have any other pieces of information for me to explore with the SAVE staff or is this the one and only major hurdle for we HRs to leap, in order to get a system on-line that will help all of us? Surely you did not risk your HR professional picture to fight this battle over a singular hole in the dam?

    Thanks for moving this post to the all serious areas of interest, this is not a laughing matter and it deserves the view and education of all HRs everywhere.


    TN HR: 2:45 PM I have done as I committed to do, the SAVE STAFF are working on your situation, as given to me in your previous post. The Staffer did, as you recommended I do, which would be in violation to the MOU, she got back an "authorized to employ". So under your situation as described, you are correct. The reason is because the I-551 is vialidated by the SSA data bank. They are supposed to have seen the various documents presented by the I-551 individual and validated the individual, as one authorized to work in our country forever, like a US Citizen, thus the response to a I-551 applicant.

    I thank you for the challenge and the information the staff of SAVE has recorded my complaint of this situation, and they are working on the hole in the DAM, as we write. I will either get back a confirmation call or an e-mail letting me know what to do if anything about the circumstance of an I-551 foreign national.

    I personally have never processed an I-551 potential employee, obviously, you have, or you would not have tried that data as an example of a "flawed system".

    I now wait on your additional administrative complaints of a FLAWED verification system designed to help all HRs everywhere. That issue will soon be closed and fixed and ready to move on to other issues.


  • I appreciate your efforts in this matter Pork. I will continue to monitor this and put the system to the test as soon as you tell me it is ready to go.

    I have no idea how this will address the illegals coming in from CA with Driver Licenses that are impossible to discern from the real ones. That coupled with stolen SSN cards and you're back to square one. I myself, would like to see some sort of biometric system in place or on-line picture. That would be the only way to do this right.

    I'm going to ask Don, since I'm not a citizen of MS, to contact your State Adjutant General and recommend you for a Legion of Merit for all of your efforts.

  • TN HR: Thanks for the thought, I have already received one of those from my Vietnam days. I'll get back to everyone when a I-551 case issue has been fixed. In the mean time, I encourage everyone of you to get on-board and start to validating your I-9s to protect your actions, your company, and our country from those that want to do us harm. I feel confortable that the I-551 issue, if you have one, will be fixed simply by linking the SSA data bank back to the DHS data base for all cases including the I-551 cases. The more of you that are using this system the more "loop holes" will be found, and the stronger our protections for all sorts of reasons will be.

  • FORUM MEMBERS: The SAVE staff has exercised the SAVE program as it pertains to I-551 data and they have informed me that the data input from us from the I-9 with I-551 information is designed to issue an "authorized for employment", as stated by TN HR. It does that because your 1st verification is really the 2nd verification and no need to recheck the DHS data bank. That will always be true unless you the employer are not satisfied with the respnse, then you must take the next step to inquire with a real SAVE staff member on-line or by voice to discuss your concerns. At that time the DHS data bank would be revisted to check your concerns for the employment and documentation.

    Reasoning: I-551 is issued to an approved PERMANENT LAWFUL RESIDENT WITH A# NUMBER, the individual then visits the SSA with the necessary documentation, who then verifies the data in the DHS DATA BANK and issues a SSN card with an assigned number (1st verification of a I-551). Therefore, we must rely on the execution of the SSA and the DHS verification systems for validation of our hiring activities. If we do that we will get authorization documentation on-line within seconds in order to hire and employ individuals, authorized to work in our country.

    No employer using this system can be held responsible for a fraudlant hiring process.

    We did not have anything before the SSA sytem; we did not have any means of doing a quick verification of any thing with the DHS arena before, we got SAVE. The system is not FLAWED, the SSA and DHS data banks are linked and if your government gives you a written authorization to employ then jump on it and move on.

    If any I-9 data, inputted into the system does not appear correct or altered, and you want to question the outcome, we have the SAVE help staff that will be available to exercise all data banks to validate your hiring efforts and to provide you with the necessary documentation to attach to the I-9 and placed in your I-9 files.

    I have one more up-date to give and that is on our mis-matched DHS work permit employee, who is presently suspended from work until the close of business today. Tomorrow, I will re-enter the SAVE system and document that we have terminated this person as an attendance issue and close the case, print the document, attach it to the I-9 and file the termination action in the personnel file and establish its NEW rightful place in the terminated cabinets.

    Please here these words and take the opportunity to join Jinney, me, and thousands of other employers working the system in the SAVE program. It is a "great effort by your government" to help, we employers to hire and work individuals who are authorized by our govern to be in our country and earning a living. Both the SSA system and the DHS system are in-process of development, like all computer software programs, their design will change, as we discover "loop holes". But, at this moment in time, the SAVE program is there for your use, and this Ole' HR highly recommends your enrollment.......IT IS YOUR CALL TO MAKE!

  • "The system is not FLAWED, the SSA and DHS data banks are linked and if your government gives you a written authorization to employ then jump on it and move on."

    This, in essence, has been the source of my weekly confrontations with you regarding this subject. If you would simply position this system for what it is and as long as you make it's vulnerabilities known, then I am OK with it. My problem with you and your sponsorship of the SAVE program is that you tout it as the ABSOLUTE solution, something which it is not.

    ".....written authorization to employ........" means absolutely nothing when the SSA letters begin coming in asking why you are the third employer reporting wages for the person listed on the fron of the form, an almost guaranteed situation given your scenario.

    Face it, Pork, this system is nothing more, and will never be anything more than just another step in the due dilligence process. It does not, and should not for anyone reading this, offer you a peaceful pink cloud of absolute assurance that you are not employing illegals.

  • GENE: The employment of illegal immigrants has never been the thrust of my excitement over this system. It is the employment of individuals regardless of their nationality as a good hiring action. i fought the I-9 program when that came along as a big waste of time and head aches for we HRs every where. Did not win that battle and I have been concerned about the inability for an HR or HR people to recognize some data on a presented document as being real. Not withstanding my concerns we plowed ahead finally getting a telephone verification 800 number so we could check at least a social security number, which was expanded to the on-line test. At least, with this check we were able to verify at least this basic information. My concern remained for the valid "work permit"! Dhs has done that for our HRs EVERYWHERE. HERE THIS, we have been riding for now 5 years with good hispanic employees who confessed to being illegal aliens in spite of our checks and I-9 information. We applied for a change in status for these 15. We do not yet have a change in status, as yet. There remain 5 on-board.

    For a long time, we hired no new work permitted employees because the SSN would not verify we send them to the SSA and they would not return. This year work permits were seeking employment and three SSNs were verified, we hired all three. I became concerned and found out about the SAVE program which was an extension of the SSA program. I joined it and here we are now able to verify not only the SSA data bank, but also the DHS data bank. The most important factor is the "documentation" I now have supporting my hiring actions of foreign nationals.

    MY ARSH was previously well seen from the top of the flag pole with little to no documentation to use in the defense of this companies' hiring actions. If, Gene, you would look for the positives in these programs in stead of beating up on our government for FLAWED programs you would not be wasting your time trying to convience me that my shouting or preaching is inappropriately oriented. What we HRs have today is a 1000% BETTER THAN WHAT WE HAD BACK IN 2001.

    Got to run!

  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 05-26-05 AT 00:03AM (CST)[/font][br][br]C'mon pOrK, why won't you give it up? This system we have now is "1000% BETTER THAN WHAT WE HAD BACK IN 2001". Are you kidding me? I was using Experian SSN Trace with much better results.

    I am in no way putting our government down nor am I discrediting your honorable efforts. I have given you numerous accolades in both private and public forums. But I have a limit and I have to draw the line.

    You've become so psychologically and emotionally attached to this that you can't possibly seem to let it go and accept it's flaws and failures. We owe it to our profession and to each other as, to borrow your term, PROFESSIONAL HRs, to make each other aware of potential pitfalls when it comes to the best practices that we share. It is irresponsible and negligent not to do so.

    I don't understand why you're having such a hard time grasping this concept. This is no different than a pharmaceutical firm taking their latest and greatest to market, touting it as the best treatment for whatever, yet failing to disclose, AND LATER DENYING, that it only works 80% of the time and that you run a 10% risk of liver and kidney damage!

    To use this system as you've described in previous posts, knowingly taking advantage of its vulnerabilities and hanging your hat on the fact that "....your government gives you a written authorization to employ then jump on it and move on" is simply ridiculous!

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