Prayer Meeting

SENOJ

One of our employees has started a prayer group in the warehouse. We have informed him and others all non-suctioned meetings must be held off the clock. In your opinion, should we even allow a "religious" meeting in the building? HR has offered the EAP to help with the troublesome issues they are facing.

Please respond.

smaces_twin

It depends. I need more details about your company and it's culture before I could give a yes or no answer. If you do turn a blind eye, keep your ears peeled for ee's feeling forced to participate and be waiting for other religions wanting the same "rights". In our environment I would not allow it. Too many potential issues to deal with.

National Guard

Sorry, just can't pass it up. What is a non-suctioned meeting?x:-/

Crout

"Off the clock" means nothing. If you are allowing the meetings on your property you are giving approval to the meetings. This is a can of worms you do not want to open.

deniseE

I would be cautious about telling ee's that they may not meet during non-work hours...lunch for example...maybe one of our Legal guys can step in...but it seems that employers cannot prevent ee's from praying at lunch....

we have several muslim ee's here that make their prayers every day at the same time each day...we also have groups that meet during lunch hours...weight watchers, walkers, parent's assoc. if we forbid religious meetings, I would think we'd have to forbid all meetings...and then attempt to define what constitutes a "meeting"...no more than 3 ee's may have lunch together???

smaces_twin

To expound on my response: I was referring to not allowing meetings. If someone wants to pray, go for it. I cannot and will not stop that. If I know that a prayer group is getting together in a section of the plant, I'm not going to allow it. I'm not going to search it out, but if I know about it I'm not going to allow it. I think it can open up a can of worms. You'll have the Baptists in one corner the Catholics in another. Then where are the Rasta's going to be? There is no more room. I do not interpret religious accomodation to allow prayer meetings. Prayers, yes, meetings, no.

marc

What kind of issues are they dealing with or creating that would call for EAP to step in? Sometimes the reasoning for these types of statements is intuitively obvious, but I don't get it in this context.

Private employers do not have to completely neutralize their environment with respect to religion, but the issues that can be created might have a major impact on the companies ability to get to a healthy bottom line.

If you have a diverse workforce, the EEs that do not share the same belief system being promoted in the prayer groups can be put in awkward situations with respect to their fellow co-workers. Especially if it looks like company leadership tacitly approves of the beleif system being practiced. If managers and others in positions of authority are directly involved, it can create a perceived atmosphere of favortism and gentle (or not so gentle) pressure to join in and become a part.

Then what do you do if the the athiests or the satan worshipers want to do the same. Quite suddenly you have started to treat these groups inconsistently and have cracked the lid on Pandora's Box. This could lead you to write some large checks to your attorneys to defend your actions.

So unless your company is ready to take some sort of official stance on these types of issues, I would not allow these types of things to be tacitly approved by having them on site.

Don D

The 'can of worms' that I would not touch is prohibiting employees from praying at work. As long as participation is voluntary and no other group is prohibited from similar activity it's no big deal. What if my method of prayer is simply holding the hand of a coworker and closing my eyes with my head down. Do you tap me on the head with a stick and demand to know if I am in prayer? What if praying to me means simply standing still and facing east? Am I insubordinate. I can imagine being on the intercom, "As a reminder to all employees, there will be no praying at Ace Dumpster Repair. That is all."

The only way I would approach this issue at all is if the group is stopping work to join in prayer, thus violating the work rules of the company. But the prayer would not be the issue. The work stoppage would be.

Don D

For those of you who would ban the gathering of people for prayer, let me pose this question. What if the same group was composed of employees with disabilities, actually six people in wheelchairs. What if they got together every Wednesday on break, gathered over at the back table in the breakroom and DISCUSSED THEIR DISABILITIES and even where they might play wheelchair basketball on Sunday? Are you gonna break that up too? Can't have these wackos talking about missing limbs and such can we? What might those with other types of disabilities think? Surely we'd have to carve out a section of the breakroom for those with epilepsy. I view the laws addressing religious discrimination and disability discrimination virtually the same. Refusing to let employees freely congregate, when not interrupting business, to discuss whatever they like or do whatever they like as long as it's not illegal is ridiculous. Can I get an Amen? sorry.

AJ SPHR

IAWD (I agree with Don!). I think we take things too far, imagining the extremes when we try to ban things and write policies forbidding them. We have/had prayer group who meets over lunch. Participation is completely voluntary and in fact I'm not even sure who all attends or not. It's harmless, no complaints, and it's ON THEIR OWN TIME! We allow weight watchers and yoga and other activities, why should we ban this? Don't we need to inject a bit of reasonableness before forbidding everything just in case an extreme situation happens?

Parabeagle

Sorry, AJ. Injecting a bit of reasonableness is no longer an option - the lawyers have already struck.

However, I agree with Don, as well. You would set aside a quiet place for a Muslim employee to pray in your offices as a reasonable accommodation - why not a group of people sharing their faith? As long as it's not on company time or interfering with productivity, I see no reason such a meeting can't be accommodated.

deniseE

I still think that attempting to ban it would lead to more headaches than you think you'll prevent by not allowing it.


Even if you take the "as long as I don't notice it approach"...then you may find yourself attempting to explain why you noticed the prayer group, but failed to notice the large group of ee's in the lotus position on the front lawn.

marc

My issue is not with the meeting, it is with the idea that the company is somehow sanctioning it. The post does say all non-suctioned groups should meet on their own time. I get concerned based on an actual experience in a development company where the President, Senior Marketing VP and one of the major investors suggested a meeting during lunch where a couple of us were invited to join to discuss religious issues. This was a group of devout born again individuals who were great guys and good business people. I was one of two who were asked to join the group. Since my direct boss invited me, I felt compelled to join, but once in the meeting, I let them know that my spirituality was personal and private. I also said I did not want to say anything to them that would offend anyone's beliefs or that would jeopardize my job. They all understood.

The other guy in the meeting was off the hook. He came up with this whole Rastifarian religious view that set them back on their heels. Fortunately for me, they spent all their time discussing his perspective and very little on mine. At the end of the meeting, the President (my boss) said that it had been interesting and informative, but he thought the workplace was not the right forum for this kind of discussion and that the experiment was concluded and thanks for attending.

Just a few months later the Rastifarian was out of work. I refuse to believe there was a connection with this meeting, but my cycnical, evil twin wonders who I think I am kidding.

Don D

Right, or the people in wheelchairs whispering, subversively. You know those types are always up to no good.

AJ SPHR

Sorry, Parabeagle, but I don't understand what the issue is:
* If the prayer group or bible study is off work hours
* If attendance is voluntary
* If there are no complaints of evangalicizing (yikes, is that how you spell it?) or loud noises or uncomfortableness for some reason

Then why forbid it? If something does happen and someone becomes upset and tells HR about it, I believe as long as you promptly and thoroughly investigate and resolve it - either tell them to tone it down or stop it altogether (depending on the complaint) - that the courts will be favorable to the employer.

I dunno, just must be my mood this week, that HR is becoming afraid of its own shadow.

smaces_twin

Your comparison is not apples to apples. There are faiths that are quite divergant of each other (Jewish and Christian for example) and when OPENLY discussed can offend someone. I don't know of a disability that can do that. If someone is quietly praying I have no problem with that. If it is an organized meeting I do. As to those who question what a meeting is, when I am aware of a situation I will have to look at it and make a decision. I do that every day and do not have a problem with it.

Don D

I can tell you of several disabilities which certain people claim to be offended by. Before reacting, notice that I said they CLAIM to be offended. Try these: AIDS, burn victims, mental retardation, the blind..........apples to apples. The law views accommodation for religious reasons no differently than it does for disabling realities. If you ban or 'stop it' as you say you would, you'd better also be prepared to stop the Masons, AKA's, other fraternal groups, the CB group, members of the Garden Club, Hog Wild BBQ Team and the country club members (from the front office) from assembling and conversing at your facility. Some of those have secret chants and handshakes and codes of ethics and songs that signifies membership.

smaces_twin

First of all, what are the chances of AIDS victims to start a support group at a plant? Talk about ridiculous. Second, explain to me how burn victims, the blind and the mentally retarded can offend someone the same way that a catholic or baptist would (in a prayer group that the company allows) stating that if you don't believe in Jesus Christ, you are going to hell? How would a jew or muslim feel?

Secondly I do not believe religious accomodation would require you to allow a prayer group.

I'm not going to change your mind and your not going to change mine. So, get in the last word and we'll move on to more productive things. I've got some chicken (sorry Pork), a cold beer and some wonderful children waiting at home for me and I'm going there. Don, have a cold one on me.

Don D

"First of all, what are the chances of AIDS
>victims to start a support group at a plant?
>Talk about ridiculous."

No, my friend, I'm talking about two people, perhaps with AIDS, maybe even three of them for God's sakes, offending others by having the nerve to sit down together discussing their personal situations and plight in life. And they do it every morning on their break. And sometimes they cry and whisper and look funny at others. No different from the two people who are seated in quiet prayer.


"Second, explain to me
how burn victims, the blind and the mentally
>retarded can offend someone the same way that a
>catholic or baptist would (in a prayer group
>that the company allows) stating that if you
>don't believe in Jesus Christ, you are going to
>hell? How would a jew or muslim feel?"

The scenario you now paint is 180 degrees from people quietly praying. The post was about people praying, not having a hellfire and damnation oration, telling others they are going to hell.

>"Secondly I do not believe religious accomodation
>would require you to allow a prayer group."

That would be 'thirdly', your BP is running rampant. This is really not about one of us changing the mind of the other. This is about the law. Perhaps you might have a conversation with a labor attorney.

Lastly, PORK will have your hide for mentioning chicken!

smaces_twin

I guess I lied. I never said I would not allow quiet praying. Re-read my posts. I would not allow a prayer group. Maybe our definition of a prayer group is different. The prayer group that formed in our FL location (this location is VERY diverse) consisted of a group of the baptist faith praying and discussing their faith in the breakroom. The leader of the group had actually tried to convert people at the plant. We put a stop to it. If their are thirty people in the corner with their eyes closed I have no problem with that. If their are two people discussing their faith in the breakroom and I know it may offend a reasonable person, I'm going to stop it.

I would rather not pay my attorney to resolve our disagreement, so I'll ask the attorneys in the forum. If I have somebody come to me and ask to start a prayer group and that group would pray and discuss their faith during their 15 minute break, would I have to accomodate? For Ho ho's let's say they are catholic.

Gillian3

Jeez, religion does create a dither doesn't it. Less disciplined people actually go to war over it. Anyway, my practice has been to ignore statements, group meetings etc. unless a problem occurs, at which point I deal with the problem. The last one was the single mother who was told by another employee that she had committed a sin and was going to go straight to hell. The employee who informed the other about her future was told that it was inappropriate, created a lot of problems and certainly wasn't the best way to change one's point of view. Religion wasn't an issue, the disruption was.

Don D

But, alas Gillian3, the partial birth abortion, now ruled legal in California, will be the answer to the dilemma you post. Sorry for the political commentary. But it is what it is.

Crout

A lot of this hinges on the definition of a "prayer group." All the prayer groups I've ever attended were essentially Bible study groups, and anything BUT quiet. When the Spirit moves people they tend to get a little loud, and yeah, a big part of the discussion was that there is only ONE way to salvation. That's my reference point, and fine for me. But given that context, I can see how a "prayer group" could become offensive in a highly diverse workplace. If I'm Jewish, and all I'm trying to do is eat my lunch in peace it would kind of irk me to hear a group of Christians yammering over in the corner about the ONE path to salvation because it demeans my faith. The lunchroom should not become a Christian church. Now if it's a question of a few friends saying a prayer before lunch that's a different story.

ray a

There are actually at least two discussions going on here, prayer in the workplace and evangelism - probably more with subpoints. Those who said employers cannot rule out individual prayer are correct. But, what if 2 people get togther in a private office away from everybody else? Is that a group and could it be perceived as offensive? "Well, it's only two people and they are private, so let it go." Now how about three, four, fifteen, twentyfive? Where do you draw the line?

We've discussed in the past allowing Muslims a place and a time to say their required daily prayers. Do you allow them to do that? Individually or maybe a small group? If so, then you must allow Christians, Jews, etc. Hey, what about Wiccans - got to include them.

We must be consistent and not show a preference, so either it is acceptable for all or it is not acceptable for all. As an Evangelical Christian, I have very firm beliefs. But, when "on the clock" (and being exempt, that is all day while on premises) my time is my employers. I am being paid to work, not proselytize.

So, the answer depends on your specific company - the culture, the amount of diversity, the willingness to accept or tolerate other faiths. If by allowing one group to meet it will create a problem with others wanting to and your facility feels like it is being turned into an ecumenical worship center and not a place of business, then forbid it. If your ee's are relatively homogeneous and a group meeting, on their own time, for Bible study and prayer will not be disruptive, then allow it. If allowed, it should be private - not our where it could offend others.

Dasher

I was going to join in on this very interesting discussion, but Ray stole my thunder . . . so I will just say "ditto" to his post with the following in semi-large caps:

"So, the answer depends on your specific company - the culture, the amount of diversity, the willingness to accept or tolerate other faiths.."