Experience in lieu of degree

GLC

We have a program where a B.A degree is required. Recently, we have hired a couple of staff in this program who do not have degrees but several years of experience. Now we are accepting experience in lieu of a degree. For those of you who have done this, did you bring them at the same salary as the degreed personnel. I really would like to have a difference in the salary for degreed and non-degreed personnel. I was wondering what others do.

Don D

If the person meets the position's minimum requirements, whether by education or experience or a combination, they should be paid no less than the start step of the position. If the person does not meet the minimums you publish, and you decide to hire them in a training capacity with an understanding that they will get a degree, I would pay them something less than what a fully qualified person would make. How many times have we all gotten in the trap of paying somebody less than the range and then not being able to wiggle up from that rate and the catch 22 it caused later when trying to hire another entrant.

Hunter1

My first reaction is that either a degree is required, or it's not. Can't have it both ways. If the degree is not required for some licensing/certification reason, then, generally, you cannot mandate a degree, and why would you want to pay someone less if they do the job equally well without the degree?

Don D

>My first reaction is that either a degree is required, or it's not.
>Can't have it both ways. If the degree is not required for some
>licensing/certification reason, then, generally, you cannot mandate a
>degree, and why would you want to pay someone less if they do the job
>equally well without the degree?


Hunter; About not being able to 'mandate a degree', I think you're commenting from the public employment perspective and the large body of rules those employers usually exist under. Private sector employers can require a degree if that's their analysis of the job and it's preferred incumbents. But, even in public sector job postings, it is very typical to see the wording, "Degree or three years experience", indicating either one or the other will equally suffice. An employer shoots himself in the foot when he tries to figure out a way to bring somebody in at less than the start step of a position, unless you're dealing with truly a trainee situation.

deniseE

I guess you need to look at WHY you're asking for a degree...we do for many positions not because it is required knowledge for the job function, but the managers like to say that they have college grads working for them.

I would look carefully at the qualifications that you're seeking...many of them are fulfilled through work experience. And frankly, sometimes that real world experience is far more valuable than the piece of sheepskin on the wall.

Having said that, there are certain areas where this cannot be compromised, lawyers, doctors, technically trained staff...

and yes...the applicant without a degree should be paid at least the minimum offered on the payscale.

marc

Obviously degrees can be important to certain functions, but experience can go a long way to mitigating the absence of a degree. And I think everyone can cite examples of ees holding degrees that were ineffective or not even utilizing them. To the best of my knowledge, Bill Gates only holds honorary degrees and in my past, one of the companies I worked for had PHD's running ski-lift lines. I have also had people that looked great on paper, but put them to the test and it seems like they slept through all the classes.

ray a

This has been an ongoing debate at my employer. Some believe that degree is very important and make that the #1 criteria, others are more concerned with finding people with experience and skills who meet the requirements. I side with the latter and I am degreed. At one point we had a director with a GED but all her reports had to be degreed. Make sense? The job description for our site Director of Quality requires a 4 year degree, but the description for his boss at corporate only requires a 2 year degree. Why? Because the corporate boss has only a 2 year degree so the description was written to match her. Make sense? I didn't think so, either.

gillian2

I think your answer depends on the relationship of the degree to the work that is being done. There is a lot of relevance to accounting, engineering, nursing degrees etc. to the work that is done in those fields. The relationship gets really murky in other fields. We can look in our HR ranks to see the relevance, or lack of relevance, because many are not degreed. The skills and abilities required of HR is not dependent on degree attainment. I vote for the same pay range regardless of degree, unless there is some clear relevance to attainment of a degree.

Don D

Speaking of 'voting' Gillian2, what's your read on things this morning?

gillian2

This is Thursday morning and we seem to have had a little moisture last night.

Hunter1

I have been operating under the impression, possibly wrong, that the requirement of a 'general' degree is a pretty difficult requirement to justify. Certainly as gillian says, in engineering, teaching, nursing, etc, the degree relates to specific work, or credentialing, but I think it would be hard to prove to the EEOC or other agency that a liberal arts degree is essential to being either a customer service manager, or HR manager. In other words, you turned down a member of a protected group with 20 years of experience in that field and hired a 22 year old with a degree because you required a degree to be a customer service mgr? Try to fly that one.

Pork

TO ALL: A degree at the undergraduate level is important outside of the professional (medical and legal) to give orientation of one's education toward a particular vocation. It also demonstrates a very important personal characteristic of "sticktuetiveness" [for those that don't under stand computereez that means STICK TO IT AND GET SOMETHING OUT OF IT]. This characteristic is so very important regardless of your chosen field of study.
I am a career educator by credential a BA in ED, I am a professional "killer of tanks and people" by training and on the job training and teaching and an Act of Congress; I am a professional Human Resources person by way of a Masters in counseling, experience, and on-the-job training. I am successful in the SWINE (PORK)WORLD as a an HR not because any of the above gave me the right of passage when in the interview process for this job. The GM told me a few months ago that the reason he was so impressed with my resume with cover letter was because of the entrance words in the cover letter wich got his attention: "I am the answer to your dreams; I have the experience, the education, the know how to run an HR department of 1 or several, and I am located in the area and there is no relocation required". It was bold, arrogant, positive, and most of all it did meet his dreams for the problems he was currently facing. His only concern was the last 18 years or so indicated several different employers all in the HR field; we discussed that concern and he was satisfied enough to make the job offer. I responded to his offer with a letter of thanks for the interview, but I was concerned for my total lack of "HOG KNOWLEDGE". The GM made the offer, I accepted and over several months now I have gained a respect from the SWINE EDUCATED FROM BOTH THE EXPERIENCED AND THE EDUCATED WITH EXPERIENCE HOG MAN AND WOMAN. They taught me the HOG vocation and I have taught all of them leadership!!!

In all of my different vocations & opportunities, I have seen the experienced ee pretty much running the operation and making things happen and the educated with experience leading and commanding with authority. I have also seen them fail!

Having been through three RIFs, I vote for the experience and proven leader regardless of education.

I also vote for the payment of wages and salary based on performance. We had a recent Master's graduate enroll in our manager-in-training program at a salary of $26,000, a top Ag school graduate in the swine field, after three weeks he quit. His reasoning was "I did not pay $35,000.00 for a master's degree to shovel manure and wipe a "sow's butt for breeding"! His self worth was way over valued; so degrees don't give you any indication of how much to pay, nor who will be successful! Pay the individual what he/she is worth based on proven history and success. All of the credentials in the world and a 50 cent piece might buy you a glass of water.

I hope this little story helps you sort through your concerns!!!

PORK

Don D

I enjoyed that Pork. But, how did pig's manage to breed before there was someone paid to stand there and wipe their butt, as you put it?

cebudragonlady

Pork, that is what I call "starting from the ground up" , shoveling manure
and wiping sow butt ! Actually, $ 26000 is pretty good wages for doing that.

Chari

Pork

YEP: IT IS A BLESSED DAY FOR A NEW GRADUATE IN THE ANIMAL SCIENCE WORLD TO BECOME A MANAGER-IN-TRAINING IN OUR COMPANY. God put the animal on earth to populate the earth for man to: name, to use for God's glory, and to provide food for man to populate and live in this beautiful world of ours, HIS WORLD.

Your question Don is a good one, when in the wild and roming this earth free from man's caging actions it was the Boar's responsibility to "wipe the Sow's butt'prior to natural breeding". Now for your next lesson in animal husbantry "you should be so kind in your next mating opportunity".

Shoveling manure is a requirement generated by man, when we moved from the "outside method" of Swine farming to the "inside method" of Swine farming in this the animal science world of work. Every one must shovel a little manure each day or it gets pile high very quickly. After all, it is natural to eat, sleep, and produce manure by all of God's animals!!!

I know that is more information than you care to read, but I hope it helps you to sort through the issues of your day and go home having learned a little more about this "world of work". It is absolutely amazing what one can do to earn a wage, a good one at that, $26,000.00 for a first day graduate, ain't bad change!

Eat more PORK, it is good for us all. The dirty Swine animal of many years ago is no longer the same animal on many of our farms all over the world today. It is truly the other white meat and is safe to eat when properly cook.

"Dandy Don" try a Boston Butt prepared the same way you do your turkey including the flour and the injection and you will enjoy another great way to prepare and serve pork! By the way all of you should go for the "Honey Suckle White" whole turkey at the 10 and 12 lb size to deep fat fry nest month. The "Honey Suckle White" is our brand of turkey.

PORK

Dasher

Never heard of the "Honey Suckle White" and I am from the South. Where can I get one -- just ask at my local grocers, or what?

Pork

Dasher: Wal-Mart and Sam's, Kroger, Food Max are the large food chain retailers. I have just ordered a Honey White 12 lb. turkey for all employees for Thanksgiving at 89 cents a lb. Our processor is in North Carolina. Bryan Foods is our primary processor of prime grade Swine; Jimmy Dean in TN gets all other than prime. Bryan Foods is the brand name for the swine products.

Good eating everyone!!

PORK