References and Timing

ray a

I am currently recruiting for a director level position and a conflict came up over requesting personal references. We had one candidate who seemed to be an excellent fit based on the first round of interviews and intended to bring him back for round two with a different group of people. Before round 2, we requested his references so we could check them out immediately to shorten the process. He refused to give them. He wanted us to give him a written offer contigent on the reference check - we give him an offer, then we can check his references.

In many cases applicants will give their references when they submit their resume. This is the first time someone has refused to submit references upon our request.

My question, do you typically perform a reference check pre or post offer? Does it make a difference what level of employee is being recruited?

scottorr

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 07-29-03 AT 07:03AM (CST)[/font][p]We have stopped asking if we can check with current employer, too often you get a boss that feels negatively about an ee looking to leave. We ask for two references, one personal and one work related. We run a criminal back ground check and they must under go two panel interviews, we have gotten good at weeding out the bad ones because even if you miss something, someone else picks up on it. Besides with most references, you tend to only get dates of employment and title. I have never had someone refuse to give references. I'm wondering if his references are from his current employer. Maybe suggest to him to give you some refernces from past employers. Or you could just pull the plug on him.

Hunter1

Yes, and I'm not giving you any advice until you assure me that I'm going to get to see you in the HR Hero t-shirt! Certainly this candidate had the opportunity to clarify what kind of references you wanted. Pull the plug!

ray a

I sent my picture in to the "web admin" since I am an HR guy and technically challenged. So, we are dependent on them to post it for me.

awilliams

I just checked with James, and peeked at Ray A's delightful picture (no tights, though, sorry), and it will be posted forthwith! Check for it later under HR Har de Har Har.

Anne Williams
Attorney Editor
M. Lee Smith Publishers, LLC

Don D

I look at reference checks totally apart from and different from employment verification. I know of no one who would contact present employers to verify employment, much less to turn it into a reference check type of discussion. I would not proceed with anybody who balked at providing references. I see about 10% of resumes nowadays that actually provide references up front, although most people are simply conditioned to type in the "provided upon request" statement at the bottom. I see no downside to them having provided them early and it may grease the skids for them. Assuming that might be the case, I personally have provided them upfront in the last several times I sent out a resume and I advise my children to do the same. Sounds a bit ponderous for someone to tell you they would only release their reference list if you gave them a contingent job offer. Wouldn't proceed, unless somebody in the company made me. In fast track hiring situations, requesting and receiving and working a reference list can greatly stretch the timeline.

On the other hand, thinking through this, I do suppose that some few candidates really high up on the food chain might want to keep their search totally secret and they might feel that in their small circle of associates, providing a reference list would expose their search. This seems a bit paranoid as well as narcissistic.

ray a

A little more info... First off, the candidate accepted another offer, so he is no longer beng considered - and I am very happy. He was unemployed, and our request was for his personal references only, so there was no fear of retaliation from his employer. He actually had the audacity to say in every other professional recruiting process he was not asked for references until after the offer was made - implying I was unprofessional. He really won me to his side with that. He said all his references were high level exec's and didn't want HR people pestering them - not his exact words, but that was the meaning. Also, he was negotiating with other's and didn't want multiple queries to his friends. He may have been embarassed if his friends found out he was considering a much smaller organization than where he came from.

Before he took himself out of the running, our CEO decided he wanted to hang on to this guy so my boss took over the discussions/negotiations and he conceded to not do any reference checks until after an offer was made. Good cop - bad cop. That made me very happy, also.

I was just wondering how other people handled personal references so I could be a little better prepared next time.

Balloonman

Myself, I want you to call my references early, two are former bosses from companies that went out of business. They pretty much guarentee I get the job! I even had the HR person at one job I turned down make it a point of telling me about the reference that my most recent former boss. Basically said they would be a fool not to hire me. Was very nice to hear. I also somewhat expected that as I busted my ass for him, lol.
I would consider it a red flag if someone did not want to give references. I can understand not wanting them to contact your current employer, but not giving references? That is crap.
My $0.02 worth.
DJ The Balloonman

Whirlwind

Ray, congratulations - sounds like you dodged a bullet on this one. We always do reference checks pre-offer, and if a candidate wouldn't cooperate with this, I would advise him/her of the location of the door and say "Thanks, anyway."

mwild31

I do reference checks pre-offer. We have the interviews, for some positions we do testing and then we do reference checks. The information I receive during the reference check is part of our evaluation decision process. We had an applicant for a purchasing position that aced the interviews, aced the testing and when I called on his references - it turns out he stole money from his former employer to pay for drugs. We didn't offer him the job.

I had an applicant in just about two weeks ago that told me he didn't have to list references on his application - that it was illegal for us to ask for them. When I asked him where he got that information, he told me that his former employer, a local large aerospace manufacturer (rhymes with 'moaning') gave him this information.....

Cinderella

Don't you love it when candidates think they can dictate how the hiring process will go? I also love it when applicants tell me what's legal and what's illegal. Because, how would I know, I'm just in HR.

Ugh!!!!

The arrogance and audacity of some people just kill me.

Cinderella

mwild31

I've had it happen so often with employees and applicants over the years that I think I have the Washington State Department of Labor and Industries, Employment Standards office telephone number memorized....x;-)

ray a

Everyone seems to agree with my consensus. This guy was hiding something and we were better off losing him. I just got frustrated when my boss capitulated and agreed to his terms making me appear to be the bad guy.

Don D

Sometimes there's the poetic justice of seeing a guy last 3 months who you voiced strong objections to hiring and a senior level VP or owner decided to overrule. Maybe it will validate your existence; if not in his mind, in yours.

ray a

That's correct. We hired another director last January and selected the person who was number 2 in my estimation. I argued for another individual who I thought was a better fit for our culture. Well, I was overruled and 2 months later, sat in with the VP as he gave her a warning to improve or else. Inwardly, I was smiling.