No some of us have not forgotten, and like I said we can't bring god to work, but again I repeat the devil is running wild! Its about choice, yours and mine!
>Religion is a hot topic that needs to be >left out of the work place.
Ok, I'm going to say something here that will probably make some of you mad. I am a Christian and proud of it. I wear a cross on my necklace and a religious charm bracelet almost every day. I also have two bibles sitting on my desk at all times. When an employee comes to me and tells me that they or a loved one is going through something, I don't hesitate to tell them that I will put them on my prayer list. I believe that my #1 function on earth is not to keep people from being offended, but it is to tell more people about Jesus! I truly believe that God placed me in the position I am in so that I have the opportunity to be a witness for Him. If I get sued because of those bliefs, then that is a chance to witness to even more people. I also believe that if I am doing God's work, He will take care of me. If someone tells me that I need to keep my beliefs out of the workplace, then I am offended because those beliefs are a huge part of who I am.
Very courageous position, Julie. Not many would speak their mind as frankly as you just have. I admire your candor. I would only suggest that you make sure you don't expose your employer to liability.
I wear a St. Christopher medal and carry a Rosary, but I seldom talk about my religion at work. As observant (or un-observant) as I may be, I feel that there are some places where one needs to tread VERY carefully... the workplace is one.
My reason for being so adamant is because I have lived through a religious discrimination case. A member of our HR department sent out an e-mail requesting all staff pray to Jesus for a co-worker who fell ill. We had several employees file complaints and one of them had recently been denied a promotion by this same woman that sent the e-mail. Although the two were not related we lost the case in the end.
You say that you were offended and that being a christian is a part of who you are and you obviously feel that it is okay to display this at work. My question to you is if you had a satanist working for your company, would you allow them to display the same religious fervor that you display. You are placing your company in danger of a lawsuit. You can have your beliefs all you want but being in HR or even being a manager you need to be aware that its your company's checkbook on the line and in some states and cities your own. I am not telling you have to do something but if I were the owner of your company I would be slightly afraid.
I agree. Today, human resources professionals must be very careful to be neutral at work on such sensitive issues. The same can be said for other hot topics such as politics!
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I waited a long time to enter this fray, but now just had to.
You are proselytizing at your workplace and no one above you has a problem with that???? I'd have the GM in my office so fast it would make my head spin (Exorcist? - oops, sorry couldn't resist).
My boss recently converted to Greek Orthodox, and she's very obsessive about it (it's simply her personality). Tho my religion is different, we believe in the same Trinity and she still wears ME out - and I have had to tell her so on more than one occassion.
I agree with religious beliefs being part of what MAKES you what you are. Those are thoughts and choices everyone makes. Certainly we all have the option not to answer when the missionairies of whatever faith show up on your doorstep. Your employees, however, have no option but to deal with you in the workplace.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 05-21-03 AT 02:20PM (CST)[/font][p]As a HR professional, part of my job is that the employees know they can come to me for help and I will help without being judgmental or advocating my religious beliefs. If I did either, they probably wouldn't come to me. This would result in two things. First, I would not be doingi my job properly. Second, I wouldn't be helping the ee (the best part of the job). If you want to wear a symbol of your religion to work, I don't care. But if you believe that you have to advocate a particular religion, then you should not be working in human resources.
Julie, Your comment doesn't make me mad, it scares me. Your response was that if you get sued, you get to witness to more people. Are you kidding me? A major part of HR responsibility is to NOT get sued. Apparently if it applies to religious discrimination you don't care. You need to quit HR and become a preacher. Then you can live out your #1 reason to be on earth and not expose your employer to unnecessary liability, the #1 reason your employed.
Ok, maybe I made it sound like I am constantly talking religion. I'm not. If the proper chance comes up to witness to someone, I try to do it. I feel that is my #1 job. But, I would never put someone in the position of feeling like they have to listen to me, just because I am HR. I try to witness through the way I treat people and the way I handle problems.
To answer the question of whether I would let someone with Sadist beliefs show those beliefs at work, I can't say that I would. I know what I am going to say is really not politically correct, but I believe that this country was founded on Christian beliefs. I feel that we have gotten so worried about offending someone that we aren't allowed to show what we believe and do God's work. I know it's a different topic, but it relates...I believe that prayer should still be in schools. When I was young, we prayed before we had meals and the children who didn't believe just stepped out in the hall for a minute. We were also allowed to say the pledge of allegiance in school every day. Our country was founded on Christian beliefs and now, we aren't even able to practice those beliefs where we spend most of our time. Something is wrong!
As for the people above me at work having a problem, they don't. First of all, we are in the south (the Bible Belt). Most of our employees are Christians or nothing at all. We are also a fairly small company (55 employees). And, like I said, I don't go out preaching all day, every day. But, everyone here knows that I am a Christian either because of the way I act, or because I have told them. You should see a person's face light up when they have just told you they or someone in their family is sick and your reaction is that you tell them you will pray for them. It's amazing! It's almost like you can visibly see a weight lifted off of their shoulders. That's all I say. I don't preach, but that little phrase (which I mean whole heartedly) says a lot to them and has changed some of them. They respect my beliefs. For example, the owner/president of the company, I hear, uses 4-letter words all the time, but not around me. I have never made a big deal about it, but he obviously respects my beliefs enough that he refrains around me.
I didn't mean to start a religious debate here, I just feel like it would be wrong to take God and religion totally out of anything.
I am sorry but our country was founded on religious freedom. People came to this country because one religion was repressing another. People came so they could feel free to practice their own religion. That is why we have the seperation of church and state. I agree with SMace, you really need to look at other career options. It is not that your views are not politically correct, its that your behavior is illegal according to the EEOC.
Again, Julie, I admire your courage and commitment and I disagree with those who seem to think that there is no place in HR for an outspoken, committed Christian (or Muslim or Jew or Rashneeshee, for that matter). However, having said that, I honestly think your employer would be better served if you were very careful in your daily interactions with others and kept them secular. x:-)
Committed, fine, outspoken, no way. Julie herself says that in a different venue, her witnessing may not be so well received. I have to agree that if she feels to witness is her #1 job, then she should make it so.
There is certainly a place in HR for a committed Christian (many HR people need to be committed) but not an outspoken one. I think that sets you up for problems if you have a religious claim. I know this is far-fetched but I'm trying to parallel this situation to another protected category. What if your idealogy was that only non-diasabled people are the chosen ones and our country was founded by them and you made that clear to everyone. if you get a charge from the EEOC, you are dead meat.
Is it a good idea to be outspoken? Not when it is a clear job function to be non-biased and maintain an environment free from discrimination against non-christians.
I am glad that we are all able to express our opinions and experiences here. This was indeed a hot topic and I enjoyed the debate. Thank you for your question.
>I am glad that we are all able to express our opinions and experiences >here. This was indeed a hot topic and I enjoyed the debate. Thank >you for your question.
I totally agree with scott. I hope there are no hard feelings. I respect everyone's opinion even if I do not agree. These are great discussions and help me see the other side.
This group may be many things, but one thing we are not are a bunch of shy wallflowers, apparently. And for the record, I'm one of the most outspoken, opinionated yahoos I know... just not at the office. That's the point I was trying to get across with my last couple of posts.
This was a great thread. I just remembered I recently saw a job posting for an HR Generalist on a well known HR website that specified the need to be a "Christian". I thought to myself, wow there's a eeoc claim waiting to happen. I'm a Christian, but there's a time and place for everything.
Yeah, but depending upon the nature of the job, being a Christian might be a BFOQ (though it's hard to see how that would be the case for an HR generalist).
The only possible BFOQ I could see would be HR for a church office or a religious school or school system (like a catholic diocese). That might pass in court... MAYBE.... xflash
There are no hard feelings here. And just for the record, as I said in my last post, I am not extremely outspoken. My Christianity comes out through the way I act and other expressions (I don't cuss, I treat people fairly, etc.) I have never discriminated against anyone because they were a non-Christian. I can let people know my beliefs and be fair at the same time. A Christian is taught to love everyone, even the non-Christians. I don't believe in being one person at work and another person outside of work. I have to be me.
Just a little note that I thought some of you would like...our local HR Association has a prayer before every meeting.
When being yourself conflicts with your responsibilities in HR and your duty to your company its a problem.
I promise that this most likely will be my last post. It's time to let a sleeping dog lie. Julie, I pray you never get an EEOC charge. If you do you're in trouble (even if you did not discriminate). I can guarantee you'll have to spend money and time defending it.
Just a question, why would you need two bibles sitting on your desk? Like NJJel, I am not in the bible belt. We have an employee in our HR department that is born again and she makes this know to everyone she meets. Unfortunately only about half of our population is christian. All of the non-christians will not go to her for help with questions because they feel threatened by her. Unfortunately this has affected her performance because she is unable to help half of our employees. They do not say it to her face but they let the rest of our department know that she makes them uncomfortable.
I have two bibles because there is the one that I brought from home that I have always kept on my desk and there is another version that an employee gave to me. I hate to remove that one since the employee gave it to me.
I have never had a complaint made about my being a Christian. I think that most employees feel more comfortable coming to me than going to our Operations Manager or President (neither are Christians) because I treat them more fairly.
Julie, I commend you for your dedication to the faith and I know that it is sometimes hard to be a Christian in a secular work environement, because just as there are stigmas about other races and religions, there are presuppositions that people can have when you say you are a Christian, especially one who believes in Christ. Not saying that anyone on this thread is judgmental, but I feel you got a lot of flack because your co-workers (heaven forbid) know what your personal beliefs are. I just feel I have to say that just because we are Christians and people know that about us, does not mean we are "preaching" to them. If there is a muslim man who refuses to cut his beard because it is a sign of his religion, that I wholeheartedly support that and don't consider him to be forcing his views on me. In fact, he is protected by law. If I know someone is a satanist, yes because of my beliefs I am saddened privately, but I do not deny him access to ask me questions or treat him different than others I work with, just because I know what religion he is. I would chance to say that if non-christians are refusing to deal with a christian HR manager, that is no different than a Christian employee who would refuse to deal with a non-christian HR manager. Unless that manager has TREATED you a wrong way, treating them different because of who they are is WRONG on either end! And to be a committed christian, is to be an outspoken one, you cannot have one without the other..at least in my actions and in the fact that if I choose to read the bible on my lunch, I am entitled to it. I just don't "outspeak" in an office setting while in meetings or such to make people uncomfortable. But people at my work know I am a christian and I am fine with that.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 05-22-03 AT 10:32AM (CST)[/font][p]I think everyone should believe in something, however, I would not bring that to work. No one I work with knows my religious beliefs. The reason, I don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable coming to me with an issue or problem. I was hired to serve all staff not just the ones I think are going to heaven and when you as an HR professional, go around telling others your religious beliefs wheather your a christian, muslim, satanist or whatever religion you may believe in, you scare away those that do not believe the same as you. Like I said before, they may not say it to your face or to anyone else but its there. So why would you not want to be the most effect HR professional you could be? You don't need to stop being kind to others, you just have to drop your bible at the front door. If you don't your putting your company at risk for a lawsuit.
I'm with you all the way. You expressed yourself very well! I am also one that believes in God and have actually prayed before events on the job and with employees inside my office, lunchroom and even in the parking lot. And I am in HR and believe that is where I'm meant to be and will stay no matter what anyone else tells me.
I read the forum daily on my lunch break just to see who is spouting off and for some reason some people seem to think they know it all and have invented HR. Isn't this supposed to be about where people can turn for advice not to be told who and what they should do in life, because of what you think you know or believe. Because if you knew everything, then you would know that not everyone came to this country on their own and were free when they got here.
Just my little say!
Carry on JulieP. There are lots of us out here like you. Thank you for putting it out there.
Comments
>left out of the work place.
Ok, I'm going to say something here that will probably make some of you mad. I am a Christian and proud of it. I wear a cross on my necklace and a religious charm bracelet almost every day. I also have two bibles sitting on my desk at all times. When an employee comes to me and tells me that they or a loved one is going through something, I don't hesitate to tell them that I will put them on my prayer list. I believe that my #1 function on earth is not to keep people from being offended, but it is to tell more people about Jesus! I truly believe that God placed me in the position I am in so that I have the opportunity to be a witness for Him. If I get sued because of those bliefs, then that is a chance to witness to even more people. I also believe that if I am doing God's work, He will take care of me. If someone tells me that I need to keep my beliefs out of the workplace, then I am offended because those beliefs are a huge part of who I am.
I wear a St. Christopher medal and carry a Rosary, but I seldom talk about my religion at work. As observant (or un-observant) as I may be, I feel that there are some places where one needs to tread VERY carefully... the workplace is one.
I waited a long time to enter this fray, but now just had to.
You are proselytizing at your workplace and no one above you has a problem with that???? I'd have the GM in my office so fast it would make my head spin (Exorcist? - oops, sorry couldn't resist).
My boss recently converted to Greek Orthodox, and she's very obsessive about it (it's simply her personality). Tho my religion is different, we believe in the same Trinity and she still wears ME out - and I have had to tell her so on more than one occassion.
I agree with religious beliefs being part of what MAKES you what you are. Those are thoughts and choices everyone makes. Certainly we all have the option not to answer when the missionairies of whatever faith show up on your doorstep. Your employees, however, have no option but to deal with you in the workplace.
Julie,
Your comment doesn't make me mad, it scares me. Your response was that if you get sued, you get to witness to more people. Are you kidding me? A major part of HR responsibility is to NOT get sued. Apparently if it applies to religious discrimination you don't care. You need to quit HR and become a preacher. Then you can live out your #1 reason to be on earth and not expose your employer to unnecessary liability, the #1 reason your employed.
To answer the question of whether I would let someone with Sadist beliefs show those beliefs at work, I can't say that I would. I know what I am going to say is really not politically correct, but I believe that this country was founded on Christian beliefs. I feel that we have gotten so worried about offending someone that we aren't allowed to show what we believe and do God's work. I know it's a different topic, but it relates...I believe that prayer should still be in schools. When I was young, we prayed before we had meals and the children who didn't believe just stepped out in the hall for a minute. We were also allowed to say the pledge of allegiance in school every day. Our country was founded on Christian beliefs and now, we aren't even able to practice those beliefs where we spend most of our time. Something is wrong!
As for the people above me at work having a problem, they don't. First of all, we are in the south (the Bible Belt). Most of our employees are Christians or nothing at all. We are also a fairly small company (55 employees). And, like I said, I don't go out preaching all day, every day. But, everyone here knows that I am a Christian either because of the way I act, or because I have told them. You should see a person's face light up when they have just told you they or someone in their family is sick and your reaction is that you tell them you will pray for them. It's amazing! It's almost like you can visibly see a weight lifted off of their shoulders. That's all I say. I don't preach, but that little phrase (which I mean whole heartedly) says a lot to them and has changed some of them. They respect my beliefs. For example, the owner/president of the company, I hear, uses 4-letter words all the time, but not around me. I have never made a big deal about it, but he obviously respects my beliefs enough that he refrains around me.
I didn't mean to start a religious debate here, I just feel like it would be wrong to take God and religion totally out of anything.
Is it a good idea to be outspoken? Not when it is a clear job function to be non-biased and maintain an environment free from discrimination against non-christians.
>here. This was indeed a hot topic and I enjoyed the debate. Thank
>you for your question.
I totally agree with scott. I hope there are no hard feelings. I respect everyone's opinion even if I do not agree. These are great discussions and help me see the other side.
I'm a Christian, but there's a time and place for everything.
Tammy
Just a little note that I thought some of you would like...our local HR Association has a prayer before every meeting.
I promise that this most likely will be my last post. It's time to let a sleeping dog lie. Julie, I pray you never get an EEOC charge. If you do you're in trouble (even if you did not discriminate). I can guarantee you'll have to spend money and time defending it.
I have never had a complaint made about my being a Christian. I think that most employees feel more comfortable coming to me than going to our Operations Manager or President (neither are Christians) because I treat them more fairly.
>They do not say it to her face but they let the rest of our department
>know that she makes them uncomfortable.
Julie,
You say no one has complained to you but neither has the person scott works with. Doesn't mean there could not be a problem.
I commend you for your dedication to the faith and I know that it is sometimes hard to be a Christian in a secular work environement, because just as there are stigmas about other races and religions, there are presuppositions that people can have when you say you are a Christian, especially one who believes in Christ. Not saying that anyone on this thread is judgmental, but I feel you got a lot of flack because your co-workers (heaven forbid) know what your personal beliefs are. I just feel I have to say that just because we are Christians and people know that about us, does not mean we are "preaching" to them. If there is a muslim man who refuses to cut his beard because it is a sign of his religion, that I wholeheartedly support that and don't consider him to be forcing his views on me. In fact, he is protected by law. If I know someone is a satanist, yes because of my beliefs I am saddened privately, but I do not deny him access to ask me questions or treat him different than others I work with, just because I know what religion he is. I would chance to say that if non-christians are refusing to deal with a christian HR manager, that is no different than a Christian employee who would refuse to deal with a non-christian HR manager. Unless that manager has TREATED you a wrong way, treating them different because of who they are is WRONG on either end! And to be a committed christian, is to be an outspoken one, you cannot have one without the other..at least in my actions and in the fact that if I choose to read the bible on my lunch, I am entitled to it. I just don't "outspeak" in an office setting while in meetings or such to make people uncomfortable. But people at my work know I am a christian and I am fine with that.
I'm with you all the way. You expressed yourself very well! I am also one that believes in God and have actually prayed before events on the job and with employees inside my office, lunchroom and even in the parking lot. And I am in HR and believe that is where I'm meant to be and will stay no matter what anyone else tells me.
I read the forum daily on my lunch break just to see who is spouting off and for some reason some people seem to think they know it all and have invented HR. Isn't this supposed to be about where people can turn for advice not to be told who and what they should do in life, because of what you think you know or believe. Because if you knew everything, then you would know that not everyone came to this country on their own and were free when they got here.
Just my little say!
Carry on JulieP. There are lots of us out here like you. Thank you for putting it out there.