Sick Man Walking

Paul in Cannon Beach

When an employee calls in sick, is it reasonable or legal to say "we expect you to stay at home and rest unless you need to go to the doctor."

We have the unique situation in which most of our staff live on or near our property. So, if they call in sick but are walking around, reading in a coffee shop, or strolling the beach, its likely they will be seen.

When confronted we get answers like "I was just getting some air" or "I was on my way back home to bed".

Obviously we would like sick employees to recover and come back to work. Also, we don't want them spreading illness to other employees if they are out and about.

What can I say to our frustrated supervisors?

Thanks!

Paul

pecohr

This is a tough one... I don't think that you can dictate what or how they act while not at work. I do think that you can discuss with them the following; if they are well enough to stroll the beach or visit the local cafe then your company has a realistic expectation that they show up for work. If they are truely sick then they should be quarantining themselves and not potentially speading their illness to others.

Will they hear what you're saying and act accordingly... probably not, but you never know.

just my thoughts.

Stuart

Paul in Cannon Beach

Another question,

Has anyone here fired someone for being sick too often? Assuming the illness is not ADA or FMLA related of course.

Our problem in terminating an employee for calling in sick too much is that we have a manager who calls in sick all the time. So it would be hard to say we have been consistent.

Plus, we don't like firing people. I would rather see them improve. Our labor supply doesn't afford us the luxury of canning anyone whenever we feel like it.

Paul

pecohr

Paul,
I've never fired anyone for being sick to often but have termed ee's for excessive absenteeism which amounts often to the same thing, if not ADA or FMLA/OFLA (I'm in OR too) protected. I think it is acceptable to discuss/explain your expectations about attendance i.e. would really like you here at work consistantly.

Maybe post some info for all on leading a more healthy lifestyle. Just a thought.

Stuart

LisaMN

Why are your supervisors frustrated? Because their ostensibly ill employee is out spreading germs and not getting proper rest?x:o Or are they frustrated because they feel taken advantage of?

If you have a supervisor who is frequently taken advantage of in this manner then perhaps you should address the problem with him. If it happens rarely, then remind the supervisors that they are dealing with employees over whom you can exert only a certain amount of control.....

Theresa Gegen TX

My opinion is that sick leave is for people who are ill and cannot work. It is not for people to take the day off and stroll on the beach or go to the coffee shop. If they are well enough to do that, they are more than likely well enough to work.

I think you can tell employees just that. They are to use sick leave when they are sick and cannot work. If they appear to be just "taking time off" and are not really sick, they can and should be disciplined for taking it off.

Some employers always require a doctor's note. Which will stop abuse if you think the employees are abusing the policy. (Think of Ferris Beuler's day off -- when he says spending the day in the Dr's office is almost as bad as going to school).

Good Luck!

HS

One question:

Do your employees accrue sick time, or do you just allow a certain number (or unlimited number) of days to use for being "out sick"?

If it's their time, then they can use it however they feel if it's being deducted from a 'bank'. Granted, they shouldn't be out and about if they are truly sick, they should take a 'personal' or 'vacation' day for that. I'm sure that at one point or another, we've all 'called out sick' when we weren't 'dying in bed'...but going out for a stroll on the beach or to sit in a coffee shop is taking it a bit to the extreme.

Getting back to the issue though, if it is your company's time (meaning you allow a certain number or unlimited number of days) then you have an attendance issue (abuse of company time alloted) or a job performance issue (not there enough to get the work done properly). Either of these, if documented and done consistently, could lead to you being able to terminate an employee.

Boy, got a little long winded there, sorry!

Rockie

In order to minimize (not eliminate by any means!) abuse of time off, we simply offer PTO (Paid Time Off). Employees who abuse time off are simply hurting themselves this way and not taking advantage of sick leave. My experience is whenever there is a sick leave plan, it is open to abuse by employees. They use these days for "mental health days" or whatever in order to "save" vacation time. If it is combined, they choose to abuse their time off.

You have to realize though, some employees will still abuse regardless. We give employees three unscheduled call offs during the year. On the fourth call off, we assess them a "penalty" PTO day. This is per episode, not per day. Say someone calls in unscheduled on their fourth time and they are our for two days, it will still only be "one penalty day" plus the PTO time, of course. They are not assessed if on approved leave (FMLA, etc.).

We just started this in 2003 because we have massive unscheduled absences in our medical practice and had to take drastic measures to curb it. Hopefully, this will work. It's always a challenge to stay one step ahead of the abusers.

Don D

>When an employee calls in sick, is it reasonable or legal to say "we
>expect you to stay at home and rest unless you need to go to the
>doctor."
>
Paul: To answer your specific question, what difference does it make if it's 'legal'? you'll only add to the heartburn above your gut by making such comments, especially if you have any plans of enforcing them. Imagine the heyday a plaintiff's attorney will have with your company should you try to control whether or not a sick employee is laid back comfortably in bed with soup by his side. I would simply subtract a day of sick leave from their balance and find something productive to do.

Paul in Cannon Beach

Thanks for all your comments. I am going to make some recommendations to our supervisor based on some of your suggestions.

Paul

LindaS

I agree with Rockie regarding PTO time. A former employer provided "personal" and "vacation" days to employees and we found that the supervisors were uncomfortable having to delve into an employee's personal life to determine which should be assessed for a given day. The change was made and employee meetings were held to explain that the days off were to be used for what an EMPLOYEE wanted and needed. If an employee missed a day they had to use a PTO day. Once their PTO time was exhausted and if the time off did not fall under FMLA or any of the other federal or state leave laws the time began counting against them. Once a supervisor deemed that there was an abuse, it was dealt with on a disciplinary level.

Paul in Cannon Beach

So if an employee has used up his PTO leave and the leave is not FMLA or ADA, do you just take it on a case by case basis? Say the employee is legitmately sick, do you allow that?

Does the PTO need to be scheduled in advance? Sick leave obviously is not but vacation leave usually is scheduled in advance so that responsibilities can be covered.

Do you ever ask the purpose of PTO or just grant it uniformly? Can I have a copy of your policies e-mailed to me: [email]paulknoch@hotmail.com[/email] or by fax: (503) 436-1047

Something tells me this wouldn't work in our situation but it would be interesting to know more about it.

Paul

LindaS

In response to your questions, once an employee used all their PTO time it was dealt with on a case by case basis regarding any discipline and if they were legitimately sick and it was something that would qualify under the FMLA or ADA then they were disciplined the same as anyone else who abused the system.

As far as scheduling we asked that employees schedule the time off in advance whenever possible. Most employees were really good about requesting time off but there was always the possibility of them calling in. The detterent to that was the fact that PTO was not considered time worked for determining overtime so if an employee had 4 10 hour days in and called in on Friday, those "extra" 8 hours were then paid at straight time as opposed to time and a half. Of course this was not the case with exempt employees but most employees in those positions are usually pretty dedicated.

The only times I recall asking for the reason was if a person wanted time off and there was something that might prevent them from getting it approved. For example on department did not allow people to schedule time off on a holiday week and there was a situation with a person wanting some extra time off on a holiday week for a family reunion - something like that. Otherwise we didn't ask. The supervisors really liked this policy because it took them out the situation where they felt they were "prying" into employee's lives.

As I said this was with a former employer so I will look and if I find anything I will forward it to you.

Good luck!