Sigh...I need help please

Today we had another employee resign. Most of our employees have been here for years, and when employees do leave, it is almost always to retire. This is the 3rd resignation for this same position since late 2005. This is a great place to work, and we pay market. Though each employee who left has mentioned a better offer, a better place for advancement, etc etc, they have also all mentioned the same thing regarding their reasons for leaving. They hate working with Employee B.

Employee B is extremely reliable and eager to please. The position involves data entry and customer service. It has been difficult, but we have managed to train Employee B to do well (most of the time) with customer service calls. However, she hasn't been able to translate that to other employees. Unfortunately, the position we keep replacing has to work closely with Employee B.

Employee B is nice and has a heart of gold. She never shows a temper with anyone. She has many good qualities. She is also very (and I mean VERY) errr...different. I suspect she has more than a few compulsive disorder issues (for instance, she has been written up for writing everyone's comings and goings on her calendar. She never did anything with the information, just kept writing it down.) She wants to help so much she crosses the line and doesn't seem to understand the concept of minding her own business. She puts her foot in her mouth regularly, and I believe she is often unaware that she has done so. I have known her for more than 15 years, and I am sure it is not done with malice or forethought. Everyone in the company has to deal with her, but most manage to avoid her other than a few minutes here or there. For instance, when we go out as a company for lunch for special occassions, it is almost always the last person in the door who ends up sitting next to Employee B. I can remember at least one occassion where I came in and saw both seats on either side of her empty so sat next to her so she wouldn't feel bad.

However, 3 employees leaving is a situation getting out of hand. We have talked about a number of ways to deal with this. A suggestion was made that we send the new employee to a seminar on dealling with difficult people. However, those seminars are usually geared towards dealing with bullies, etc. We also talked about asking a local trainer to design a course especially for us. It would seem odd to only send new employees in that department to it.

Another suggestion was that we make sure we hire someone who can be rude (it often takes directness and rudeness to get Employee B to understand....she doesn't get sublety), but how could we count on that person to handle the customer service calls with compassion and consideration? There is also another suggestion, but we are hesitant to use it, especially if it puts us at risk.

The suggestion is that before the new employee comes in we have a talk with Employee B. We tell her that 3 of the last 5 employees who have left the department have cited her as a factor for leaving, that replacing employees is expensive, and that if she is cited again we will have to let her go. She is an intelligent person, but I am not sure she will be up to the challenge. Plus, I expect she will soon figure out that only 3 of the last 5 employees who left actually chose to leave (the other two were termed by our choice).

Thinking on it, I probably posted about this situation last January when employee number 2 resigned. If so, perhaps you will repeat the suggestions you made then or come up with some new ones? Pretty please? I really need some input.

Nae

Comments

  • 28 Comments sorted by Votes Date Added
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 12-03-08 AT 10:30AM (CST)[/font][br][br]I remember your last post on this employee. I am sympathetic to your plight. As a non-profit, its not uncommon to have people who are...different. Our organization has a rich history of colorful characters (I know what you are thinking!) I have always been very proud of our ability to be accepting and redemptive towards people who the cold hard world might otherwise cast off.

    The downside though is from a business standpoint, you have to maintain a certain minimum of performance and productivity. You aren't casting for a quirky reality show or sitcom. You need to achieve your business goals.

    I think you have outlined your options fairly well. I agree with you that it may be unlikely that the employee to fully control or improve her behavior. That said, she needs to understand the impact she is having on others.

    My only suggestion would be to add "getting along with employee B" to the job description. Throw a few more bucks at the job and be very direct with your new hire that you understand that working with employee B is not easy but its simply part of the job.

    The other question I would have is "does ANYBODY get along with employee B?" Even our quirkiest characters have friends. If so, what are those people like? You might find a clue as to the kind of person that could work better with B and overlook some of her behaviors.

    Perhaps consider adding the following question to your interview process:

    "Do you enjoy the quirky characters on the TV show 'The Office'? How would you like the opportunity to work with someone like that?" :)
  • Is it possible to reposition Employee B so you can still use her talents without so much interaction with other employees? We have an Employee B as well, and we were fortunate enough to be able to do that. Everyone seems to be happier - including Employee B.
  • We are so small that few of our jobs overlap. This is one job where we need 2 people.

    We have a 6 person cubicle. These 2 usually occupy the end of one side. We are using all of the cubicles for various things, but I think we will put the new person on the opposite corner of Employee B. This way it will not be easy for Employee B to question and 'help' the new employee. Also, Employee B will not be able to see what the new employee is doing by just walking by.

    Would we be crossing a line if we told Employee B to stop helping (which feels like harrassing) or she will be the next to go?
  • Many people actively dislike Employee B, but a few of us give her credit for her good intentions. No one can stand to be around her for very long though, as eventually you will find yourself biting your tongue. As far as I know, she doesn't have any friends here or outside of here. Part of that may be due to her husband who has managed to offend everyone he has come into contact with here, and I assume elsewhere too.

    We have tried to figure out a way to give interviewing applicants a heads up. We have asked if they can handle difficult people, and the tend to say yes. I suspect they think we are talking about the customer service calls they have to take, though we do mention dealing with other employees in the question. These applicants have no idea that this employee's issues are so different than you would expect. Our constant mantra to her is to NOT be so helpful.

    The last employee we hired has worked here before so we figured she had an idea of what she was getting into. That was many years ago before we did away with a line of business and reduced the department so much. She was not as invovled with Employee B so apparently didn't get it.
  • Nae Nae,
    I work with employee B. She makes my life miserable. She watches the comings and going of every ee, has said some hurtful things (unintentionally) and no one wants to be around her. Could your B possibly be insecure? That is my take on my B. Does she have an issue with sharing her workload? I have taken classes on dealing with difficult people (in order to help me deal with her - I am the only person who has to deal with her directly) and they have given me some insight in to how she works. If the person you hire is receptive to seeing past B's issues then those seminars may be a good idea.

    A side note, my B is retiring in 2010 and I set up an Excel spreadsheet years ago with the days counting down until she is gone x:D

  • And how is your spreadsheet counting down her days till retirement different from her documentation of your comings and goings? :)
  • Snarky...
    I keep my spreadsheet on a personal jump drive!
    Dealing with her has had me in tears on many occasions. Let me keep this 'one thing'... It helps me get through the day. x:-(
  • I am sure Employee B has low self esteem. Her husband is 27 years older and runs the household completely. She works, and he uses the car. When we worked where the busline was more available, she took the bus and he took the car for his use. Now he brings her, but she must sometime wait across the street for a ride home if he is busy.

    She doesn't offer much about herself, but after all this time I can tell you her husband has many more issues than she does. He goes to enormous lengths to save a penny, controls her food (to save money), and makes all decisions. No one is allowed to know which apartment they live in, and I understand he bought a new refridgerator rather than let the apartment manager come in to fix the old one (it is now used for storage). I think he has some kind of hoarding disorder too.

    We have tried sending employees to seminars on difficult people. None of the people mentioned or scenarios come close so haven't been helpful.
  • Hopefully you can find an employee who will be able to see past her issues to the good person inside. I have prayed for my 'B' and have tried my hardest to do that. Some days are easier than others. Good luck!
  • I am sure she could use it, but other than hinting that it was available I am afraid to go too far. I don't want her to be considered ADA because I noticed she is a little OCD.
  • What if you refered her NOT for OCD but to help her learn how her behavior is perceived by others? I think I would try a "supportive confrontation" and send her off. I wouldn't consider just b/c someone goes to EAP it becomes an ADA issue. . but I could be dead wrong.
  • Sonny you have really made me think. I believe you have a good suggestion here. Why do we keep trying to find people to work with Employee B the way she is? We need to send Employee B to an EAP or a special seminar to learn how to get along with others better. She needs to understand common courtesy (you quickly realize here that she doesn't get it when you notice she is saying good morning to you EVERY time she passes you in the hallway...even if it is every 10 seconds for several minutes.) When she worked for me I could not get her to stay out of another employee's in-box. I finally had to threaten to write her up. It is rediculous that we are all going through this (repeatedly) just because she is an otherwise good employee.

    We need to find a good way for her to learn and then bring her in and explain that she better learn it well or she is out of here. Then we can feel like we did all that was necessary, and stop wasting time and money replacing other good employees.

    What a great idea! Thanks!

    Nae
  • Keep us posted. . And you captured my thoughts . OCD, weird husband, feel sorry for her aside. . SHE is the problem. Good luck!!
  • We have a B too, actually a couple . When interviewing applicants I ask behavioral questions, situations that have actually occured. I tell the applicant I have some hypothethical questions for them and ask about three. Usually I get the, gosh I've never heard that question before. I generally give them some extra time (maybe 20 seconds) to develop their answer. I usually end up asking a follow-up to their answer. The answers usually are a good indicator about how they would handle B.

    Good Luck!
  • I agree that ideally B would change. But I just dont see it happening given the information you have provided. Dramatic, sustained behavioral change is more rare than I think we all would like to admit. That kind of change requires the right environment, motivators, incentives, support, and ongoing accountability. Some of those factors are there in this scenario but not all.

    This individual sounds very wounded. You may have more success finding a compassionate coworker (perhaps someone who has worked with abused individuals) than you will trying to make B change.

    Some of her behaviors sound like attempts to create a degree of control (recording people's activity) and given her home life, that is understandable.
  • For once I agree with Paul.

    Only after many direct confrontations with my B could I get her just to stop answering my phone (we have direct lines and voicemail - it got to where I hated to leave my office). She doesn't realize she has a problem; it is me who doesn't appreciate her 'help'. Do you believe your B will realize She has a problem? If she hasn't already noticed her co-workers dropping like flies and made the connection, well, I don't hold much hope for her coming to a sudden realization. Finding a compassionate co-worker who could possibly guide her to better behavior might be a better option. My B noticed how people would stop in my office to talk but no one ever stopped in her office. She started mimicing my behavior (she told me this) and while it makes her more bearable to our co-workers, it irks me to no end! x:-(
  • You should get her a "WWKSR6450D" bracelet for Christmas. :)
  • Interesting dilemma! I thought Sonny had some good advice. Another approach that you may try is talking to her about appropriate professional boundaries. Since I work in mental health, establishing and maintaining professional boundaries is essential. While we are all cordial (well for the most part) to each other, we all recognize the need to maintain a certain distance from each other. The professional distance concept helps us all to work well as a team and not micromanage. Just a thought.
  • A huge plus on our side is that she really wants to please, she just doesn't know how. When her constant 'good morning's were driving us crazy, the CEO put out a memo telling everyone to stop saying good morning more than once to each other (I am NOT kidding!). She stopped. One of her quirks is that she follows rules right down to the last letter.

    I believe that if we get her training designed specifically for her she will do her best to accomodate us. But we will also need to make sure the person we hire can be direct and not quite so worried about hurting her feelings. We have a very warm and friendly atmosphere here. I'll bet it took me more than 5 years to get her current supervisor to get to the point where she could say the kind of direct remarks Employee B needs. I know that makes the supervisor sound bad, but she is also a very hard worker and gets a lot of devotion and work out of her employees. She does it by modeling and kindness. She usually doesn't have to say much to get an employee to change their ways. Employee B proved the exception simply because the supervisor used subtlety. Employee B reported to me at one time, so I was able to coach her supervisor into being more direct by explaining my experiences. However, regular employees feel dumb coming to you to tell you that Employee B is driving them crazy because they ask the same question every morning...especially if it is an innocent type question. And of course they don't see why they should have to resort to what many see as rudeness to get another employee to leave them alone.

    We will have to make sure that Employee B understands that we are doing this because we don't want to lose her, but if she doesn't stop driving other employees crazy that is what will happen. I like Employee B, but only in small amounts, so I can imagine what it must be like to sit near her. To further help the situation, we are moving the new employee to the furthest spot possible. It is silly to have two employees doing the same job so far apart, but we are willing to try it.

    Of course it is quite likely that once we get her to stop some behaviors others will pop up. But I know she will do her best if you point it out. Having a trainer use some key words for us to follow should help. (For instance, when she worked for me she admitted that she didn't get subtlety. That was a breakthrough for us. After that I started sentences with, "Remember when you told me you didn't get subtlety? Ok, so I am going to tell you something without being subtle...." Then I would say something harsh which one would usually only say if they were rude or angry. It worked.)
  • For what it's worth, we've had our share of Bs as well. We are also nonprofit and seem to be a magnet for Bs. In fact there have been times when I would have sworn that we had the corner market on them.

    My philosophy is that B should be told (in kind but no uncertain terms) the effect her personal characteristics are having on coworkers and your business. Without the right incentive, B is not going to change. You know that B knows how others feel about her. After all, it's obvious at the dinner table when no one wants to sit by her. It's like being the last to be chosen on the team in elem. school. That kid always knows, and so does your B. I would be frank and honest with her that the position that works with her is important to the organization just as hers is and is detrimental to the organization when productivity is interrupted by the need to fill it "again," and your exit interviews have clearly pointed to her as a primary reason for the turnover. I would challenge her to not have such a negative impact on the incumbent to the other position. I might even go so far as to include something in her performance eval or work development plan to encourage her leave the other worker alone or consider the consequence of losing her job. If you need something as concrete as financial justification, you may be able to point to the history of employee longevity in your organization and the cost of filling your Employee A position repetitively vs. the cost of filling Employee B's position once. I know it's a stretch, but it may help get the message to sink in with B.

    This is a very different situation I know, but think of her personal characteristics in a more tangible way, such as unwelcome odor or improper appearance. If you would require something different in those situations, it is reasonable to expect something different with B now. Put her on notice for it and be prepared with consequences if she doesn't improve.

    I'm not really a Cold-Hearted Hannah. I just work in HR!

    best wishes.
  • You never know unless you try Paul.


  • UPDATE:

    We sat down with Employee B and explained that we were losing employees because of her difficulties in dealing with others. We sent her to our EAP. The EAP called us every week with an update, and we gave timely feedback. The EAP hinted the problem was probably more to do with anxiety than anything else, and after thinking about it, I agree.

    Employee B went for all sessions, and the EAP even extended the agreement to one extra session. The EAP indicated the employee probably will continue treatment with another therapist. I hope so, but am not counting on it. The EAP indicated the employee would like more feedback from us too, so things don't get so out of hand in the future. We are currently considering our possibilities.

    The EAP concentrated on teaching Employee B about how to deal with others. We have seen real improvement. Of course, every time Employee B has ever been in trouble we seen dramatic change, but it tends to fade in time. Right now, Employee B is almost like a whole new person, and things have continued to improve every week instead of slowly disintegrating to the old ways. I sincerely hope she keeps with the treatment plan, as the new version is a great improvement.

    Thank you all for your feedback. I have some hope that things have really changed for the better. Even if it doesn't, and we are eventually forced to let her go, we can feel we did everything possible.


    Nae
  • Employee B sounds a lot like an EE I had once. Let's call mine EE-Q.

    When I first took over as manager of a mail services dept., everyone in the department came to me, one by one, in secret, to tell me about their travails with EE-Q. Particularly, they warned me, that he hated women and resented having to report to a woman. After about the 40th visit in three days, I couldn't help but wonder if EE-Q was the strangest duck on the planet or so mean to everyone that they'd all conspired to get rid of him.

    I had met him but hadn't had a chance to spend enough time with him to form my own opinion. So, I made a point of getting to know him. He was a little standoffish at first, but slowly warmed up.

    I had taken on that dept. early in December and that Christmas gave everyone in the dept a small gift. The visits from staff started up again with all of them telling me EE-Q "doesn't celebrate Christmas" and would "go off" any minute, ranting about how no one respects his beliefs. However, EE-Q thanked me for the gift and told me that no one had ever given him a gift at work before. (Apparently, he had let everyone know that he didn't celebrate Christmas because of his religion.) The next Christmas, EE-Q gave me gift, too. He also told me that he had converted to his wife's religion when they married and he told me about Christmases from his childhood. He said he really missed celebrating the holiday and even joined the group for our holiday luncheon.

    To try to make this long story short, EE-Q had practically no social skills, was just about the shyest person I'd ever met, and to make matters worse, was very hen pecked at home. I know this because I encountered his wife on several occasions and he was definitely hen pecked. Also, he suffered from Social Anxiety Disorder and was under treatment, etc.

    I can't say that I ever became fast friends with EE-Q and he did eventually "go off" one day, in fact on several occasions during the 6 years I worked in that department. But, the periods between his "episodes" got longer and longer and he, for the most part, was calmer and managed to interact with others in a more congenial manner.

    This was long before I worked in HR and, frankly, I was flying by the seat of my pants with him. Our HR dept. let me know that I could terminate him after each "episode" but something kept me from it. He wasn't violent, just very grouchy sometimes and would rant a bit, mostly about women. And, he was always trying to tell everyone else how to do their jobs. The main thing is, he did his job, and he did it very well.

    I believe that most difficult EEs are still salvageable if management can figure out what makes them tick. I realize that managers don't always have time for that, but also know that it doesn't take much time to let staff members know they are valued. Which, as it turned out, was pretty much what EE-Q needed from his supervisor and co-workers to help bolster his self esteem.

    I'm not saying that your situation with B is the same as mine was with EE-Q, but you might give it some thought. One other thing. I was lucky enough to be able to find a staff member to be EE-Q's "buddy" a few months after I came to the department. This individual had the maturity and patience to work with EE-Q side-by-side and it really made a positive impact on EE-Q's ability to be a good team member.

    Sharon

    PS: The Q in EE-Q stands for "Quirky" which is how I thought of him. He was just quirky.
  • Unfortunately, I have seen difficult employees who, no matter what anyone did to attempt to make them salvageable, just plain refused to be salvaged. One of them I remember well was a woman in her 40's who behaved like a pre-schooler quite regularly at work, to the point of throwing foot-stomping tantrums and bursting into tears in the middle of the office, even in front of customers. She also bullied (or tried to bully) other employees and generally made everyone else's life miserable, to the point where we were losing employees and in their exit questionnaires many of them were citing her as the main reason they left. She had problems doing her work right, problems with attendance, and several other issues as well, but the dept. was loath to let her go because it would leave them short-handed and I've found that some of our managers would rather put up with a multitude of problems than run a dept. short-handed for any period of time.

    The manager who hired her didn't want to deal directly with it...she witnessed the behaviors but rather than address them one-on-one with the employee, she would bring them up in group meetings, where Ms. Tantrum would automatically assume she was referring to someone else, agree with her wholeheartedly about how certain people needed to shape up, and go back to her normal behavior.

    The department changed hands, and the new manager asked me to come to their location to meet with the employees. She & I sat in her office and she had each employee come in, one at a time, and talked to them about their background, how they felt about their jobs, and if there were any problems in the dept. we should know about. Each one of them cited Ms. Tantrum as the only problem in the dept., except of course Ms. Tantrum, who complained that she often didn't get to take her 15-minute breaks. I had heard from others in the dept. that not only did she take her breaks, she often fell asleep in the breakroom and would oversleep and they'd have to go wake her up to come back to work. (Maybe that's why she thought she wasn't getting her full 15 minutes, she didn't realize she was sleeping through it!)

    Ms. Tantrum was not exactly a great employee, either, she was written up for a variety of infractions, several of which would have been grounds for dismissal, but management kept giving her chance after chance and trying to work with her. Everything that went on, according to her, was always somebody else's fault, and nothing anybody did seemed to help. She just couldn't see how her behavior was affecting the other employees. It was a classic case of her thinking everyone else in the world was wrong and she was right.

    Management of the dept. changed hands once more, and the problems continued. After several more written warnings about an assortment of problems (not the behavior issues) they had finally gotten to the point where they realized it was a lost cause, when she turned in her resignation...everyone gave a collective sigh of relief and expressed pity for her new employer, but nobody was sad to see her go!
  • There are certainly all kinds out there. It sounds like our EE is across between cnghr's EE and Sharon's EE. Our EE is never, ever late. She takes scheduled vacations, but has only missed once due to illness in more than 10 years. She does her work well, and she is one of the few employees we have who gets thank you letters from the organizations we work with. On the other hand, her need to make things absolutely perfect and right for others has put us in liable situations and driven excellent employees away. We are small enough that we don't have many options. So far, the EAP and putting the new hire fairly far away from this EE has made a big difference. We are keeping our fingers crossed and enjoying the peace.
  • I think Ms. Tantrum should have been shown the door long before that third manager arrived. There's a difference between bad behavior and someone with an underlying mental disorder and it sounds to me like Ms. Tantrum had performance issues early on that the first manager just did not deal with.

    I've worked with supervisors and managers that were new to the job and didn't have the experience to handle a Ms. Tantrum and some who were seasoned management but just didn't want to. As a result, I've scripted talking points for some and sat-in on their "coaching" sessions with problem employees for others.

    You know, one of the things that amazed me the most when I came into HR was the lack of quality training supervisors and managers receive in how to, well, supervise and manage. Most get plenty of training on the technical aspects of their work but not a lot on leadership.

    I wish you the best with employee B and am here to help if you ever want to bounce ideas around.

    Sharon
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