Job at Risk - Help

djacobs475 · October 2003

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 10-27-03 AT 11:08AM (CST)[/font][p]I believe my job may be at risk and am hoping my fellow HR Forumites might be able to offer some valuable advice.

I am Director of HR in a 1-person HR Dept. for a small company (approx. 52 ees).We use ADP for payroll, done through accounting by the way. I had a meeting with ADP about other issues and they want a chance to bid on a new range of services they offer called TOTAL SOURCE - where they handle it all: Employee Handbook, Payroll, All Benefits including Health and 401K,Attendance, Harassment Training, Safety Training, EPLI, compliance issues, etc... you get the picture...

Here's the dilemna: if we go with their program, I don't believe they will need me anymore since every function that I take care of will be outsourced through ADP... and although some of the benefits they offer are very valuable, I am afraid that in our current budgetary crunch and in our corporate climate where even the CEO doesn't see the value of my HR function, I would be literally cutting my own job.

I just found out that ADP did send all the documentation on this new program to our Accounting Dept. ( who never forwarded it to me) and may be able to speak to the CEO to recommend we should look into this program - and if that happens how do I justify my job here?

Just for your information on our corporate climate here vis-as-vis HR, our company was written up about in our local newspaper for one of 13 companies in South Florida for HR Best Practices, a total HR program I put in place (while as a nubie to HR)in a company that had NO HR dept. This was quite an honor - to be chosen among many great companies with HR-rich departments with actual HR budgets (unlike operating ours on a shoestring). Anyway, at the awards dinner, I sat next to an empty chair all night - my boss, the CEO was supposed to show but never did, giving me some lame excuse after the fact.

What would you suggest and how would you recommend I handle this?
Should I wait for ADP's proposal or should I let them know that we are not looking to incur any more expenses at this time?

I really appreciate your wisdom.
Thank you.

Update: To all of you - Many Thanks for your replies. It's certainly been a good wake-up call to me; needless to say I will be taking out my resume and updating it. Thank you all for your wise advice!

System · October 2003

TOTAL SOURCE - where they handle it all: Employee Handbook, Payroll, All
>Benefits including Health and 401K,Attendance, Harassment Training,
>Safety Training, EPLI, compliance issues, etc... you get the
>picture...

Do they offer a hot-line for employees and managers in reference to employment law? Doubtful. Will they come in and investigate complaints and resolve grievances? Probably not. Do they review employee evaluations? Train - Bloodborne Pathogens, Supervisor training, other industry training? How about FMLA compliance and tracking? Who would look into ADA, Workers Comp? Who is the keeper of employee records and files? Do you do an employee newsletter?

I'm guessing you do all these things too. I would list all the things that ADP can't do. Also, who would be the contact for all the things (other than payroll) that ADP does. It would be silly to assign someone other than HR.

djacobs475 · October 2003

Thanks for your reply.

Re: Your "Do they offer a hot-line for employees and managers in reference to employment law? Doubtful. Will they come in and investigate complaints and resolve grievances? Probably not. Do they review employee evaluations? Train - Bloodborne Pathogens, Supervisor training, other industry training? How about FMLA compliance and tracking? Who would look into ADA, Workers Comp? Who is the keeper of employee records and files? Do you do an employee newsletter?"

Actually, yes they do all things, plus more... HR hotline for compliance and employment law, their EPLI attaches to legal issues, they do employee investigations as to grievances, they do all sorts of training including bloodborne pathogens and haz mat training, yes to FMLA compliance and tracking, and yes to ADA and workers comp. The only thing they probably DO NOT DO is employee newsletter... as to employee records and files, the way it was explained to me is that they would have all electronic files and we would have full access to those 24/7.

Pork · October 2003

S MOLL: Wished I had good advice for you; the company is in business to make a profit and if out sourcing is a fact of business then be prepared to re-vamp your position and supportive of the CEO/PRESIDENT, OR WHOEVER by your willingness to become the companies' HR ADMINISTRATOR with responsibility and accountability for all of the above poster's arenas. What you want to do is to be there when you are able to "shoot down" the outsourcing project. Make sure you bring out the RECRUITING, PLACEMENT, AND HIRING EFFORTS, benefits planning and employee relations.

It just might be that the company leadership chooses as many others do, reduce the HR and let the secretary handle HR. It is a history of our field of vocation, that when the company starts to have financial issues, they will: 1) STOP ADVERTISING. 2)REDUCE THE HR FUNCTION AND GIVE IT TO SOMEONE ELSE, it is there and it always will be. If you don't be apart of the solution, you may just be an answer to the problem!!!

PORK

ray a · October 2003

I agree with S Moll. And would add that I have found I am most appreciated by management when there are "people" problems. And when aren't there? When it comes to the bruised feelings, petty fights, and even disciplinary actions, I become a valuable resource. Management depends on us HR types to help them, guide them and even assist them with these problems. Also, even though our 401K provider is a phone call away and on the internet, ee's depend on us to assist them even with simple transactions. Daily we have visits from ee's with problems, questions or concerns with their health insurance and we intervene for them or point them in the right direction. We may be a crutch for them sometimes, but when they do need help, it is good we are there to help them.

cebudragonlady · October 2003

Ray has it right! An HR pro is invaluable in keeping morale up. Many of the factory employees come to me with all sorts of problems that occur: insurance
disagreements, 401k questions, on the spot safety issues, workers comp snafus,
state disability forms, surprise hazmat inspections, to name a few. Outsourcing all that may come at a high cost to morale - which affects the bottom line.

Chari

San Francisco · October 2003

Sounds like a very expensive program. You mentioned your company was in financial crunch so will this service be cost effective compared to what you can do? Lucky you, though, sounds like you will have a terrific resume if you need to move on - and maybe you are ready for new challenges???

Elizabeth

WOCO Frank · October 2003

In my relatively limited experience with ADP, I have not seen them do anything that couldn't be done more effectively by internal HR. They may be able to do some things cheaper, but not always.

San Francisco · October 2003

Frank, just curious on what you think the cost for ADP handling all HR functions would be. We have had every agency known, including ADP, trying to get us to out source our unemployment. When I handled unemployment some years ago, it was only one of my functions, but I believe the average cost these agencies were asking was between $20,000 and $30,000. And because of our systems, we would still have had to have a clerk to get personnel files to them and other info. So if they handle all functions, wouldn't it run around $60,000 plus? And I agree they simply cannot do as good a job as in-house, in my opinion.

Elizabeth

WOCO Frank · October 2003

I don't know what a "total package" would cost. In each and every case where I've seen them bid a payroll and/or benefits adminstration program, the total cost has been HIGHER than what it was internally, and with slower response times.

One selling point for ADP is that they take on much of your liability. In essence, they will try to convince management that they are "better" than you are, and that if by some fluke they do screw something up, it's no problem because they will be liable, not the company. Well, it doesn't always come out that way, and even if it does, they've only taken on the fiduciary liability, NOT the morale side.

Remember, one of the HR director's strengths is that ability to serve as CMO - Chief Morale Officer. If the company perceives that either morale isn't important, OR that ADP would increase morale, then you're sunk anyway.

ray a · October 2003

Reading all these responses reminded me of something else. Back in the early 90's our parent company hired a new President and he hired a new plant GM. Both of whom believed HR was a waste of money, space and even good air. We didn't use any automated systems, it was just believed HR was an unnecessary function. We did have a part time admin assistant for awhile. Then they hired someone full time - this for 2 plants with about 250 ee's. The GM told me the lady they hired met their qualifications - she was stupid. She wasn't really stupid, she had 20 years experience as an admin asst at a larger company, but no HR. They believed she would do whatever they wanted and without HR knowledge they could get away with anything they wanted. She was very meek, used to taking dictation and typing letters and filing. Six years ago when we were bought out, the first change was to develop a true HR dept in our facility. I moved into HR and it became my job to make it happen. Previous, each supervisor did whatever they wanted, no real policies. I had to establish my own credibility as an HR Director and establish the credibility of the department. That meant teaching people that they had to follow policies and do things fairly and equitably. A totally foreign concept in our culture. I'm still here light years ahead of where I was.

Moral of the story, drop HR and be prepared for the consequences.

System · October 2003

That pendulum swings!

HR evolves from an overload on other staff. Secretaries handle benefits, maintenance handles Workers Comp, payroll handles open enrollment, the boss recruits, and the beat goes on. The company decides to roll all these services into one - voila HR! Then HR becomes the glorified "do-all." Evenutally, if the leader in HR is powerful enough, HR is established as a vital strategic partner.

Then the pendulum swings back. Can the company save money by outsourcing HR functions? They go for it and it flops miserably. Then the company decides it was better off with HR.

And the beat goes on.

Richard S · October 2003

ray a NY, I thought for a moment that I wrote that letter. It all seemed so real to me. My concern with many of the items listed as being offered by ADP int the reference letter is what happens when they give incorrect or incomplete answers to management on personnel issues. Do they cut and run to save ADP's hide. You know thier allegiance is to ADP first, then to your company second. Plan on them doing what ever they have to, to protect themselves. I see a lot of disclaimers in the future.

Richard S

mwild31 · October 2003

Hi djacobs475 - here's what I would do in your situation - I would not only polish up my resume - I would start actively looking for a new position. It always makes me nervous when employers hire an HR type and have less than 75 people - especially if they are not in a growth mode & set future employee numbers higher - I get nervous for the simple reason - that HR managers, in a small company (in the past 10 years, I've always worked for small companies), are way more likely to get the axe first than the production manager, engineering manager and sales manager - even if these people are really horrible in their jobs.

As to outsourcing. I'm not a big fan of outsourcing & I usually end any contact/contract with a company that is specifically targeting HR/Accounting/Engineering or other departments. If the company would like to grow its operations, then outsourcing is a short-term solution, not a long-term one. Outside agencies face high employee turnovers, they have limited liability, they can't help solve strategic human directions (i.e. do we need to redo the org. chart - how will that affect us - do we need to rename job titles - how will that affect us & what will it communicate to the client and employees and the list goes on), they can't come into the company & make on the spot calls regarding discipline & policy changes & they don't know the people that work at the company. We've all experienced a situation or two where if we didn't know the personalities involved, the solution could have been ugly. Also, they can't build the relationships we can with other employers/agencies for 'real news'. I have contacts at the UI office, the Department of Labor and other local agencies and through these contacts I help shape our labor costs & have a pulse on the local economy that our sales/production/controller/engineering managers will never have. The other issues - shopping around for the best benefits plan and the best 401(k) plan, in-house training, etc. are all areas where outsourcing will never be as affective as having a real HR person in house.

It sounds as though you are a bright & dynamic person who has shaped an HR department - don't let the dogs get you down - go get that great job you deserve.

SLPaulson · October 2003

As I was reading through your concerns regarding the risk of losing your HR position because of this "fantastic" ADP program, I had to stop. Why? Because I had an employee who has a major personal issue (accused of child abuse)and needed to vent. My point is, as so many others stated, there is no replacement for that "one-on-one." Even though his problem is outside the eight-hour work day, he brings his problem to work. Through HR we are able to provide ee's with other otions, such as: social services, mental health services, etc. We can help ee work through problems by our assistance. ADP services, or any service may be great, but when the ee makes that phone call to ADP, how often will they talk to a "real person?" Will they be subject to punching this button, that button to talk to an automated voice? I came to this company four years ago, they had a "HR Person????" but I walked into a mess. I-9's filed in Personal Folders and Personal Folders consisted of envelopes, mis-matched folders, etc. Have they been happy with my setting procedures and following legal guidelines? Sometimes!!! It has been a training period. One thing I did do was align myself with key players within the company, they became my number one customer and I worked diligently to provide them with quick-responses and showed them I was there to make their job easier. We are a manufacturing company and most of our managers can't spell or put a well constructed sentence together. I do all their writing, editing, etc. They in turn have come to appreciate me and back me 100%..... Sorry, had another employee come in, a 401K problem... I guess my point is make yourself so valuable that they can't be without you and the services HR provides. We have used ADP for our payroll service and switched this year. One of the things we found with ADP, everytime you needed something done, there was an extra substantial cost. You might want to do a research in your local area and find out if other companies resource out and how they like the service. After you have done the survey, prepare a presentation of the service you provide within your salary and services ADP provides. I would think your on-hands and being readily availabe to all ee would provide a better cost savings than ADP.

Rockie · October 2003

Speaking from experience with ADP in payroll, I would not trust them to do anything with Human Resources. We recently switched from ADP to another vendor because of non-addressing of payroll issues. I can't imagine any "canned" product that would be able to handle the complexities in a Human Resources environment.

It sounds like you have a good background and do a credible job. If your boss does not appreciate your attributes, and it does not sound like he does, then I would start looking for an organization that values your expertise. They are out there.

Margaret Morford · October 2003

Since I'm the head of a consulting company (one of those evil HR outsources), I would add this. Outsourcing should never eliminate the need for an HR department. Outsourcing should be used to augment HR or to do those things HR doesn't have time for (like handbooks, compensation systems, training, etc.). HR should be handling the various people problems (potential liabilities), governmental compliance (ADA, FMLA, HIPAA, etc., which varies with every organization and every situation - do the words "case-by-case basis" ring a bell?) and strategic planning. Outsourcing should add to HR, not replace it!

With that said, maybe you should circulate your resume. You should not waste your talents on a company that doesn't value HR. If they would even consider outsourcing all of HR, you should get out and find a company that appreciates what you bring to the table.

On a more practical note, compare your salary with what ADP will charge to do this. Ask for a list of the HR things ADP will not cover as a part of this bid price. Ask ADP for five references from companies that they are currently doing this for. Also ask for three references from companies that ADP did this outsourcing for at one time, but no longer do it (past clients). Ask current clients what their in-house HR staff looks like and ask past clients why they no longer outsource. Make sure the person making the decision sits in on the reference calls to past clients.

Regardless of how it turns out, leave that ungrateful company ASAP. They don't deserve you.

There, I feel better and I think my blood pressure is falling. Thank you for letting me vent on unappreciative employers and outsourcers who clearly will do any thing for a buck!

Margaret Morford
theHRedge
615-371-8200
[email]mmorford@mleesmith.com[/email]
[url]http://www.thehredge.net[/url]

djacobs475 · October 2003

To all of you - Many Thanks for your replies. It's certainly been a good wake-up call to me; needless to say I will be taking out my resume and updating it. Thank you all for your wise advice!

terrymtucker · October 2003

All of the things ADP says they can do still need to be managed. And by the way, we also use ADP for payroll and 529 plans, but nothing else. To be honest, I think they are too expensive for some of the "extras." Also, you will be losing the personal touch that is so important in HR. Who will the employees call if they have a question about your policies - ADP? Does your company really want the payroll processor setting policies and procedures - especially some you may have to live with for a long time.

It's one thing to have help drafting a manual or policy - but they still need to be customized to fit how your company wants to approach HR. And then they have to be explained and applied.

Good luck - wish you were in my office! I'm the Controller for a firm of about 75, and my assistant and I have been relegated the role of HR after our HR person resigned in January, and then we had a RIF. Believe me, its made me appreciate HR even more than I did before she resigned!! And I appreciated it then too

WOCO Frank · October 2003

Terry touches on a good point... so much of HR is "past practice". Things an ADP clerk does today out of convenience or misinterpretation can become policy de facto tomorrow. Is that how they want it?

MOMANUFACTURER · October 2003

We use ADP for the payroll, unemployment issues, and wage garnishments. To us it is a lifesaver. We are a small company with about 60 ee. I am an accountant by training and was just thrown into the HR function after daddy's son couldn't do it. ( We all know that anybody can do the hiring/firing and the little bit of paperwork)I'm glad to use ADP for the functions we do. It takes some stress off of me ( I am also the Controller, Receptionist, Marriage Counselor, etc) We haven't run into any problems with them. Being new to HR functions it's nice to know that there is just a phone call to make to find out exactly how to put in a garnishment and that they will take care of it. I am also lucky in that my bosses also recognize that there needs to be a live person that is somewhat knowledgable that the ee can talk to when they have problems, or want to do something stupid like withdraw their IRA pay the penalties and taxes so that they can pay off their cell phone bill. (No kidding that question was asked on Friday, had to keep back a laugh how do you let your cell phone bill get up over $500?)

flyinglow · January 2004

I know it's late but in case you are still dealing with your situation, i just read you message. If your company is planning on or already has put all of it's eggs in one basket (ADP) GOOD LUCK! ADP would be the last company in the world i would do that with. We are in the process of finding another payroll company because we cannot even trust ADP to do that. Our company just went through a major problem with them and they basically confirmed my concern that we would not be able to rely on them if something went terribly wrong. I felt this way months ago and now know my gut feeling was right on the money.

If you are going to give everything to an outsource, don't use ADP. If you do, you asking for trouble if anything goes wrong.

Good luck!

Tish · January 2004

I could not agree more with flyinglow !!!! Our company uses ADP and it is a nightmare!! We use them for our payroll [3900 EEs]. Whenever there is a mistake on payroll it is always some one elses problem, mistake. Run for the hills if they do decide to go with ADP. This isn't the first company that I have worked for that has had issues with ADP.

KathiHR · January 2004

This is the ever-present wake-up call to all HR professionals. We should be able to quickly rattle off our contributions to the organization, if asked to defend our position. It helps to establish strategic goals for the department, even if you're a 1 person department. Keep it handy all year & summarize your accomplishments at least quarterly. Job cuts are based on "who can we do without." We all know that cutting HR is a huge mistake to employee relations and organizational development. So focus on your accomplishments & goals in the areas of employee relations & OD, because no amount of outsourcing can replace those functions.

Sometimes we're so overwhelmed in paperwork and projects that its tempting to hide away in our offices so we can get some "real" work done. But its our responsibility to help key management understand what we do - afterall, we're the HR professional, not them. So our job must include a regular, consistent "educating" of key management. Hard as it may be, we do have to "toot our own horn" sometimes.

Job at Risk - Help

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