Terminate Today?

scantey · July 2003

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 07-16-03 AT 01:56PM (CST)[/font][p]I have been asked by upper management to terminate the employment of an employee for insubordination. This employee has so many violations that I can only name a few (1) Talks back to his direct supervisors (2) Argumentative with everyone (3) Refuses to obey specific instructions ... I could go on and on- My only problem with terminating him today is that on his last write up they stated the next disciplinary step proposed would be Suspension without Pay. My question is do we have to suspend him first or can we terminate based on numerous violations? I know he will hang himself given enough rope- but they are wanting to do this today...so please respond quickly " )

By the way our policy states that the usual form of discipline is verbal- written- suspension then termination. However, it states that we can terminate if the suspension would be within 60 days- which it is- I just think with the documentation on his last write up we might be cutting it too close.

ray a · July 2003

What was the last disciplinary action for? The same type of insubordination? In retrospect, that writeup should not have locked you in to a specific course of action. I always say something to the effect... continued incidents of this nature will lead to further disciplinary action up to and including termination. I leave the door open. Good example of why HR needs to monitor and be involved in disciplinary actions.

Anyway, insubordination is a fireable offense according to our company policy. Depending on the severity, we may immediately terminate without following through the progressive steps.

If this latest incident is obviously different or more severe than the incident that initiated the previous disciplinary action, then terminate. If it is one more example of what happened previously, then consider the suspension or be prepared to defend your position in a labor board or UI hearing.

SVHRAZ · July 2003

Does your rule of conduct policy state that "Disciplinary actions may also be up to management/HR discretion depending on the severity of the violation". This statement has saved us a couple to times where an employee was only disciplined with a first warning a second and then turn around and violated another policy and there was no other option but to term the employee for multiple violations. Otherwise if you think about it, you write an employee up for one issue, you give them 3 strikes on that, they violate something else following the guidelines you give them another 3 strikes because it's a different issue, I am sure you get the picture. Revise you Rules of Conduct.

Good Luck!

scantey · July 2003

The last write up was also for insubordination and if it wasnt for that document stating "Next disciplinary action propsed- Suspension" I would not think twice about terminating- My only dilema is that are his violation "more serious" than the ones previously written up for?

Whatever · July 2003

Specifically,what happened today that cause management to want to terminate?

scantey · July 2003

Today he was told that he was not doing something correctly- He immediately got defensive and stated that he had been doing it this way for over two years and he was not going to change. He is in a department where they shut down for lunch from a period of 1-2pm- He is coming in 20-30 minutes late every day and punching in from lunch 20-30 minutes early to make up for the lost time- The supervisor just caught this but in researching it found that he had been doing it for some time now. He has numerous violations but they have not been documented. Unfortunately this was just given to me today and the only documentation that was taken stated the part about suspension. I definately feel that he should be terminated but the documentation is the only thing troubling me.

Whatever · July 2003

You have an employee who is constantly late for work and not written up. He makes up for lost time by taking shorter lunch hours and his supervisor doesn't know. He says he has been doing something wrong for over two years and is not corrected until today. And there is no documentation for past violations. I think you have a supervisor problem (or probably, more correctly, non-supervision problem).

However, I don't believe you can terminate an employee for doing something they have gotten away with for a while. I would suspend. I would, also, be sure that the letter of suspension advises the ee exactly what is expected of them.

HRsage · July 2003

I agree with Whatever. I would suspend him for this violation. I would do a final write up for violating this and other policies and use the same verbage that Ray suggested- up to and including termination. He's been doing this for a long time and has never been spoken to about it before, terming him for that just doesn't sit well. I'm sure you know that CA is at-will but you also know how everything else is here in CA when it comes to employees. Make the final warning a real final warning with no ways out. Good luck.

Pork · July 2003

Read your company policy on discipline and suspension. Our policy has a clause that allows us to go to the termination phase based on the severity of the next violation. All three you mentioned, our history has taken us to the termination action, immediately. Now not knowing are you in an "at will" state, are you union? These two must be considered. Next the only time I as the Director of Human Resources will take direct termination action upon the life of an employee is when I am the appointed company officer for the conduct of an investigation. Just completed one today and one employee is gone on my order, one is pending the receipt of an additional witness statement and a 2nd will be gone on my order. Where possible you should advise, but management must take the final AX and execute the order.

Good Luck get out of the line of fire whenever you can! PORK

scantey · July 2003

Thanks so much for all of your suggestions. I have decided to suspend him without pay and let him think about his work habits. I will also make sure that management gets some lessons as well...Thanks Again x:D

skyrocket · July 2003

I think you made a good decision. Management committed to writing the fact that the next violation would result in suspension. To terminate would clearly violate your own "procedure"...

The only time where it would make sense to indicate the next level of discipline is where the employee doesn't improve behavior or production concerning the violation in question. As this was a NEW VIOLATION, a case could be made that this entailed a new set of rules. It all depends on how it was worded when it said "suspension"...

ray a · July 2003

I agree, after hearing more of the facts, you made the right decision. The biggest problem, or at least a significant problem, was that he was "allowed" to do this for a long period of time. As Whatever said, you also have a supervisor problem.

LindaS · July 2003

I agree that you made the correct decision. I also agree that you have a supervisor problem in that the employee was "allowed" to get away with this behavior for so long and nothing was documented.

The only suggestion I would add is to sit down with the employee, upon return from suspension and provide them with a final warning, encompassing ALL their issues and inform them that any further occurrences of this type will result in immediate termination. Make sure you provide some type of timeframe as well. Grouping the infractions makes it clearer to the employee exactly where they stand and keeps you from having to "keep track" of which step the employee is at for each type of infraction.

We have done this at least twice recently and haven't had any further problems with the employees. One last thing, we are a union shop and have not received any grievances when employing this type of discipline.

System · July 2003

Watching the thread of comments and support you give each other is wonderful. Just 'talking' it over with others who have experienced the same or similar situations and sharing that knowledge and experiences to help others in the HR field is fantastic. Sometimes I take the time to read the threads but not the time to make a comment, thank you to those who do take the time to share their knowledge.

Eliant · July 2003

I just want to echo... that you made the right decission. However, moving forward you need to take two action steps. First, do some supervisory training on on attendance, punctuality and verbage of write up's. Make sure that all of your write ups include as a last sentence "up to and including termination" (we are in at will state.) Second, I recomend coaching the supervisor to sit with the employee and going over what is expected of this employee, there needs to be immediate improvement (no dates, or time) do not lock yourself up with statements such as "with in the next thirty days" and as you said, expect this employee to hang himself and be ready for some sort of litigation once he gets terminated in the future. Someone needs to sit with the supervisor and explain that he/she needs to also show immediate improvement in his/her supervisory responsibilities.

Good Luck
Eliant

Judith · July 2003

Sometimes time frames are appropriate so consider if "immediate improvement" is practical. And supervisors need to know that immediate means immediate and if they are late the next day they must do something -- that's where supervisors get HR in trouble a lot!

Terminate Today?

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