I-9 What if ee does not want to give info.
rina
3 Posts
What is an employer's recourse if a new hire refuses to give you his social security number because "supplying a ss# violates his 1st, 2nd and 12th ammendment rights under the constitution." He has articles and newsletters to support his belief that an employer cannot require an employee to provide a social security number. This was a question posed to me and I thought that maybe the very wise and experienced people on this message board would point me in the right direction to get answers.
Thank you.
Rina
Thank you.
Rina
Comments
Do take note that there are restrictions as to how the employer can utilize and distribute personal info such as SSN's, but that doesn't appear apply here since he's not even giving it in the first place.
Obviously, I do not support Dandy Don in this issue, but as HRs everwhere we need to press for one standard and that is to make the system work. It is very important and soon the SSA & Immigration will have us an on-line system that will allow for you to verify the SSN and Name with a birthday. My company through HR is now on-line with SSA and working as a test employer.
I certainly hope it works out! Pork
Rina
The W4 on the other hand does need the ss# and I would tell him/her that they can not be put on the payroll unless the appropriate forms are filled in correctly.
number on the form himself at the top in the section they must complete. No complete, no hire.
On the alien, even those who are admitted under work visas are able to, and should, go down to SSA and get a number. Their Justice Department Immigration and Naturalization Service work authorization paperwork will enable the staff there to issue the number. The driver license examining station (in most states if not all) will also require this card to issue a driver's license. You are correct in that the payroll people at your company will have to have the SSN to pay people, no ifs ands or butts.
THE EMPLOYEE CAN PROVIDE YOU WITH APPROPRIATE APPLICATIONS FOR DOCUMENTATION WHICH THEN GIVES THEM 90 DAYS TO PRODUCE THE APPROPRIATE LEGAL DOCUMENT WHICH SATISFIES THE REQUIREMENT TO COMPLETE THE I-9 FORM. SO ON THE 94th DAY OF EMPLOYMENT THE EE IS TERMINATED FOR FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH FEDERAL LAW.
HOPE THIS HELPS, BY THE WAY, THIS INFORMATION ON DATES COMES FROM THE ORIGINAL I-9 INSTRUCTIONS PAGE, WHICH I KEPT FROM THE ORIGINAL ISSUE OF THE DOCUMENTS. YOU WILL NORMALLY ORDER NOW JUST THE PACKET OF 50 I-9 FORMS AND THESE DO NOT USUALLY COME WITH THE INSTRUCTION PAGE.
PORK
My payroll person is CONVINCED that she needs to see the social security card in order to put the employee's name exactly as it is on the card. She said that it is federal law that employee's name must match what the government (IRS?) has on file, thus, we need to see the social security card.
To tell the truth, I haven't had much time to research this. But is there validity to this? This might throw a whole new wrinkle in this thread.
Zanne
Your payroll person should not only be convinced, she is absolutely right. My payroll specialist showed me the legal stuff, and it is the IRS. And it's $50 a whack if the W2 SSN and name don't match what they have.
The SSA does have a verification number you can call to verify SSI's: 1-800-772-1213 or you can call your local office for assistance.
A. Rodriguez
Human Resource Manager
My $0.02 worth.
DJ The Balloonman
My company has just be enrolled into the SSA Federal Test program for the verification of SSN and name including spelling. I believe it will be this year that our payroll folks will start getting SSN AND NAME MISMATCH notices with a potential $50.00 per name fine assigned to each.
I just completed my first test verification as a result of this posting. I submitted 5 names and ssns. Out of the five one was mine just so I could check the system to make sure I was submitting it correctly. Out of the five two were new employees at remote sites that are scheduled for a visit with me tomorrow for enrollment into our company as employees, and one was a new manager trainee, and two were foreign nationals with work permit and SSNs. I got two back that were not validated. It is the two foreign nationals that I must now go and suspend pending their application to SSN for the error correction of either their name or their number. Guess what I perdict, I will never see the SSN application and they will not be back to work. If I do, we will put them back to work and wait for 90 days for the new documentation corrected, at which time, we will submit payroll correction information to SSA and they will correct their erronous records! SSA could be wrong, but I will wait and see.
By next year maybe the SSA and INS will have this situation in all of our hands and we will probably see a large number of illegal persons leaving because they do not have a valid name and social security card. And just maybe the black market for illegal documentation will dry up!
NOW EVERYONE HOLD YOUR BREATH UNTIL ALL THIS GOOD NEWS HAPPENS!!! PORK
Without the I-9 there is no employer/employee relationship properly established and consumated. PORK
"I know God only gives us what we can handle, but I wish he didn't trust me so much." Sister Therese
If you're an Employment Law Letter subscriber, you can search the old newsletter archives for "mark of the beast" and you'll find a bunch of articles dating back to 1995.
James Sokolowski
HRhero.com
Page 8
4. Employee's Social Security Number (SSN)
You are required to get each employee's name and SSN and to enter them on Form W-2. (This requirement also applies to resident and nonresident alien employes.) You should ask your employee to show you his or her social security card. The employee is required to show the card if it is available. You may, but are not required to, photocopy the social security card if the employee provides it. If you do not provide the correct employee name and SSN on Form W-2, you may owe a penalty."
The question becomes what is considered "available". Our practice is that if the card itself is not presented as part of the I-9 process, at the end of the hiring paperwork fun, we ask to see their card. We do it this way so that it is not construed that we are asking for the card for the I-9. If they do not have the card with them, we ask them to bring it to our office within the next two weeks. We also have posted in the hiring area the information on applying for a replacement card: phone number, email address and street address. The problem with verifying with SSA is that if the name/number don't match, they don't tell you what doesn't match. Am I missing a middle name, is the number maybe transposed, have I spelled out a name that should be abbreviated? All they will say is that the name and number don't match their records and to tell the person to contact them. The best example I've heard is the difference between "Bill Clinton" and "William Jefferson Clinton". Although we know they are the same person, SSA says no. Also, they are fining for mismatches - we had fice this year. Turns out three of them were probably illegals as they stopped showing for work when we sent them the suggested letter asking to see their SSA card. Of the other two, one had already terminated so I could do nothing and the other turned out to be an error at SSA.
Vance Miller
Editor, Missouri Employment Law Letter
Armstrong Teasdale LLP
(314) 621-5070
[email]vmiller@armstrongteasdale.com[/email]
One of the two foreign nationals we suspended yesterday came in this morning with a brand new card and a different number. I quickly got back on line and verified in print that the number / and name was a mis-match and sent him back to the SSA for correction of the error and he is not allowed to go back to work until he gets a document from the SSA which is an application for correction of their error. It has to be the SSA error because our payroll records submitted to the IRS is the same as that which we have in both the name and the number.
Don: Again it is not the card that is important, it is the number that is on the card or in the employee's head. As long as the number matches the name in our payroll records, the IRS, and the SSA there is NO PROBLEM. The card as a document is important if it is use as one of the documents used!
PORK
The third mis-match came back this morning and he had a letter from the local SSA that they had made a mistake and had the individual recorded as a FEMALE. I wondered why they needed that information when we input the link data. Now I know; it is so that OUR government needed one more piece of information, which would identify that we have a male or female named Joe Mack Billie-Bob Smith WORKING SOMEWHERE. SSA wrote that the error was found and it was their mistake and the data will be corrected on Monday. Since it was not our employee's fault, we will pay the employee for this time spent with SSA and away from the production line. It really only took him about 1 hour but the drive time, waiting time, the drive back time left him with only the last hours of the day to work. It was worth it to us to get the problem corrected today, so we pay for his inconvience and he will support HR in the future. PORK