Fallout from Violent Employee

System · April 2003

I can't believe this keeps going on and on.
This is in regards to the violent employee issue that I posted about last week.
Once the decision was made to fire the violent ee we looked into the reasons why he got so angry in the first place. He had claimed that the kitchen staff had been torturing him for weeks by calling him names in Spanish. The entire kitchen staff (6 ee's) are related and they do have a tendency to be clan-ish and they have forced people out before.
So this is what they decided; To fill the gap in the cafe that was made by firing the violent guy ( I don't know what else to call him at this point) they moved one of the ee's from the Deli to the Cafe. Their official reasoning was that she had the best English speaking skills and she had worked a register with us in the past and we used one in the Cafe. Neither of these skills were required of the previous ee.
The unofficial reasoning behind this tansfer was to break up the clan. When she was given this news she flatly refused to go. She came in today, they told her to work in the Cafe, she went staight to the Deli. They wrote her up and told her to either go to the Cafe or go home. She stayed put. They ordered her to go home. She finally did but it got really nasty, or so I hear, I was en route when this was occurring. They plan on doing the same thing tomorrow.
She wants to be fired so that she can collect.
I have such a bad feeling about this and I don't know where to go from here. Any advice woul be great.
Thanks

MS HR · April 2003

terminate "for cause", i.e., failure to follow orders.
Unemployment should deny her benefit claims when "for cause" is the reason for termination.

Parabeagle · April 2003

And I thought I had to deal with difficult people! Gives me a new appreciation for my company.

Aside from firing the whole lot of them and starting all over (which is my initial knee-jerk reaction - but hardly practical), is there any reason not to sit everyone down in a meeting and outline what acceptable behavior is going to be from now on? I'm assuming that your "clan" is going to deny any name-calling, but that's OK. You just need to put people on notice that disrespectful behavior toward each other (or anyone else) is not acceptable and will be treated like any other disciplinary infraction. Good luck.

Bizee1 · April 2003

Agree with MS HR. The ee was told more than once to go to her new Dept. and she refused. When filling out the UC job seperation request, make sure you are detailed in your explanation of this.

Whatever · April 2003

I believe most states do give unemployment benefits when the termination was for cause. In this case, it was insubordination. I would terminate the ee.
First, simply because it was insubordination. Second, because you want to get the word out to the other employees about who actually is the boss.
I think you and the others that be should sit down and fully evaluate the situation. You have a group of people who "have forced people out before." They sound like they are out of control (and/or believe that they are in control). You will never be able to keep additional kitchen staff for long, if the newcomers are going to leave. It is time to bite bullet. I would advise them in writing about what is expected. Furthermore, when someone new is hired, I would ask one of them to do the training and advise that if they do not train properly etc., they will be terminated.

LindaS · April 2003

I disagree with the others who recommend firing the individual who was sent home. From your post it seems that you have a group of individuals that are creating a hostile work environment. Instead of terminating what may be an otherwise good employee, get to the bottom of the problem. I would find out WHY the individual doesn't want to work in the kitchen and see if other individuals will attest to the "clan's" behavior. I would address the "clan" and advise them what is, and is not, acceptable behavior. I would also advise the individual that was sent home what the proper response should have been. Terminating seems like an extremely harsh decision when there may very well be a justifiable reason the individual didn't want to go work in the kitchen.

Parabeagle · April 2003

Good point, Linda. I still think whatever problem exists in the kitchen, it's systemic and needs to be addressed, rather than just putting a band-aid on the situation by terminating employees who refuse to work in the kitchen.

jimlegal · April 2003

I agree with LindaS, speak with the entire clan. From your post last week and this one, it seems that this is a major problem brewing, which will eventually explode. I would interevene immediately, get the air cleared, remind everyone of the policies and what is acceptable behaviour. Good luck!

System · April 2003

So far this is what I have learned.
She not only refused to go to the Cafe but she did it in a rude way, mimicing her boss and dancing around and declaring "I'm in the Deli, I'm in the Deli!".
She doesn't want to leave the Deli because she has a good time there with her family. I think that her behavior this morning was atrocious and undermined her boss's ability to run his department. I want to reccomend terming for that reason alone but since I still have a lot to learn about HR I'm throwing this out there to see if any of you had more, greatly appreciated, advice.
The Kitchen staff has been there for almost a decade. I think they'll settle down when they realize they are not running the department, their BOSS is!

Parabeagle · April 2003

We have a policy for immediate suspension for just this kind of bizarre behavior. An individual behaving in an antisocial or non-businesslike fashion immediately gets three days off without pay while the incident is investigated. When the employee comes back to work (or calls in, depending on what has been requested of him) on the third day, he is advised whether or not he is terminated.

Based on your last post, I would be inclined to terminate in this particular case, but you still need to address the larger issue of overall employee behavior.

Leslie · April 2003

Discharge her based on the above, and then make sure you get the rest of the clan under control fast. The next newbie you bring in may just quit, nicely walk away, then charge constructive discharge. When it becomes apparent, which it will, that you were aware of the situation, I'm thinking the courts will have a field day

System · April 2003

She got a lawyer! She's saying we are retaliating because of her complaints about the violent guy! This is a first for me. Sorry to keep asking, but any advice?

System · April 2003

Getting a lawyer is the easy part. Trying to prove your organization is retaliating against Her after firing Mr. Violent is going to be extremely tough. Make sure your notes are good and descriptive. Call your lawyer.
Next time you may want to try the suspension approach just to give yourself time for things to settle down a little. If you have a labor contract you'll have to negotiate that.

Whatever · April 2003

I, also, recommend you talk to a lawyer just to be on the safe side. However, this ee's behavior was way out of line. It sounds like you are in the clear. I would add that the company is constantly being threatened by employees who claim they are going to see a lawyer or are seeing a lawyer. If I was concerned about the threat, I would never discipline or terminate an employee. If everything is done correctly (and sometimes I need legal advice), you go ahead and do what has to be done.

Bizee1 · April 2003

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 04-07-03 AT 01:25PM (CST)[/font][p]Well that was fast. It almost makes me think she put up the big stink when you transferred her because she had this planned all along. Regardless, you can show that you addressed the violent encounter by disciplining and ultimately terming the initial ee. You then had an open position, which she showed to be the best person for, and decided to transfer her to that position, which she steadfastly refused. An er can decide what position to put you in, how much to pay you, what benefits to offer you, etc. So far, you have not done anything illegal. Get with your company's legal counsel on this and start the process. Because of the legal things I am involved in with my own company on a daily basis, I do not see you being in hot water. I am glad you terminated the problem employee from last week. That was concerning me that your managers were reluctant to do so. Good decision on their part.

Here's a quote from your initial post last week: "This, despite the witnesses etc. I am dealing with managers who hate H.R. bleeping on about lawsuits and liability, compliance et al."

Now maybe they will start taking seriously all that "H.R. bleeping".....

sonny · April 2003

All the kitchen staff are related. She doesn't want to leave the Deli as she enjoys being with her family. When this is all over and done, I suggest you develop a nepotism policy.

Parabeagle · April 2003

Speaking from personal experience, I hate to say it but you should immediately determine what your company's tolerance for pain is in this situation. I define "pain" as "how much do I want to spend to defend this?" Many companies (mine included) will take a case that is patently frivolous with every good intention of defending it to the death. When the legal bills start mounting into the four and five figures, all of a sudden it's "Why haven't we settled this yet? We can't spend any more money on lawyers!" And they won't remember telling you how they wanted to be vindicated at all costs a few months ago.

Bizee1 · April 2003

This whole thing involving legal counsel is in the very early stages, deez. How were you notified she had hired an attorney? Surely you haven't received something in the mail already, if she has only been termed this morning. Also, it will be up a Judge to decide the merit of her accusations. What you need to do now is consult with your company's attorney (do you have one?) and just make sure you have the dates, incidents, who was involved, witnesses, etc. documented, and documented well. Also, wait to see an actual legal complaint filed. I've seen ee's threaten that they've hired an attorney, and really, they've only signed up for that Legal Aid thing and nothing ever comes of it. Once you receive an official legal complaint filed on her behalf, stating exactly what the nature of the charge is, (Wrongful discharge/Retaliation), with that notice usually come requests for complete copies of her personnel file (which, by the way, you can charge them for). Be darned sure everything that has happened with this ee is documented before you send copies of her file to her attorney. And, not to be snide, but let this be a lessen to the managers who have let this situation fester for so long. Next time HR comes to them and says there may be a problem, hopefully their ears will perk up and they will step in before things get out of control again.
If you would like further help with this down the road, let me know your email and I will be happy to help you out. You can email me at [email]lighthouseone2003@yahoo.com[/email].

System · April 2003

They faxed us their complaint. She is claiming retaliation. Finance manager is hinting about retaining ee AND giving her a raise to make her shut up. I am not making this up.

LindaS · April 2003

Have you sat down and talked with the employee to get "her side"? I would conduct an official investigation, to determine what the actual facts are. If your investigation finds that the employee acted unprofessional, and without just cause, I would follow whatever discipline policies you have set in place at your company.

My opinion is that the ee spoke with an attorney who advised her that the company acted accordingly in terminating the violent employee and that they cannot retaliate against her for making the complaint. I'm sure she started seeing $$$ in her eyes and figured that her getting terminated would allow her to proceed with some type of lawsuit. Her mistake, it appears, is that she chose to create a situation, if your investigation supports this, that leaves the company no choice but to terminate and in her eyes, is retaliation. I'm sure she is NOT telling the whole story to her attorney either.

I do NOT agree with the person telling you to bring her back and give her a raise because this is something that WILL get out in the company and pretty soon you will have quite a few of your employees doing the same thing.

Balloonman · April 2003

Wow miss a day and miss all the fun. First off, brush up your resume, as it sounds like the place you are working at has so many problems that you need to get the hell out of there asap. Your upper management does not value HR, and not to br rude your director of finance is an idiot.
Fire the gal. Bring her in, let her know that she is being terminated for her behavior. Had she come to you in a professional manner, expressing why she did not want to go into the kitchen you might have been able to do something. But the dancing around and mimicing of her supervisor is plain and simple insubordination and will not be tolerated!
Of course make sure all your ducks are in a row to begin with. Prior to this you need to sit down with upper management make sure they are on board with this. Layout how they are about to lose total control of the work place, or more approriately that they have lost total control. After she is terminated I would have a meeting with all employees by department to refresh everyone on polocies and procedures, and what will not be tolerated. Do not discuss any specifics of the termination. Then break up the clan. Rotate some of them out to the deli. Find a strong willed person or two to rotate into the kitchen or hire them. Make sure you read up on managing stress and keep good note. Good Luck.
My $0.02 worth.
DJ The Balloonman

Whatever · April 2003

First of all, keeping the employee and giving her a raise is setting a very dangerous precedent. Second, I would give the fax to the corporate attorney. Also, if you have employment practices insurance, I would contact the insurance company. This situation has gotten out of hand and nothing at this point should be done without legal advice.

Dasher · April 2003

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 04-08-03 AT 08:46AM (CST)[/font][p]You do what the Finance Manager suggested, deez, and you may as well turn the company over to "the family". If you have properly documented this situation, your company will be okay. The employees must work where the manager instructed her to work -- she can not refuse in the manner you described (IT IS CLEARLY INSUBORDINATION, i.e., disobedience to authority). Do not be intimidated at this stage -- look at the long range goal, i.e., producing a workplace without all this drama.

(Hey Don D -- you may be needed here))

Gillian · April 2003

Condensing all the good advice - this is what you need to do. Get an attorney to evaluate the situation and while he/she is there, you take the person aside and make sure that management is informed that proper management is a good thing and what they have done up to now is a bad thing. The second is to inform the family and the "clan" that management runs the company not them and that from now on these are what expectations are etc. and stick to it.

System · April 2003

I owe you guys on update.
We have legal council but my finance manager claims that if we even pick up the phone to call them it will cost us dearly.
I do have a guy that counsels me by e-mail that we pay a yearly fee.I finally contacted him and he told me to do exactly as I had been advising management, to term the ee.
When I was able to give them something concrete from someone else they finally agreed.
We are terming her for causing dissension in the workplace and insubordination.
I have been looking for another job but there really is nothing out there right now. Unfortunately I don't have any kind of a degree and only three years of experience.
Thank you all for your help!

Fallout from Violent Employee

Comments