HELP! violent employee

System · April 2003

I found out today that there has been a conflict brewing amongst one of our departments and another ee. It finally escalated today to the point of threats and the waving of a knife by the employee (he works in a kitchen).Well, when I was finally informed I advised that we terminate. At first management agreed with me, but they were very unhappy about losing him. So as I was writing up the incident they had a meeting with the kitchen staff(without him involved)and since the staff didn't want him fired and didn't want to put anything in writing they decided to give him a second chance. This was a very public incident with many witnesses (not to mention it is going to spread like wildfire.
I am in absolute shock that they are keeping him! Surely I am correct?
Any advice?

Gillian · April 2003

Yes, you are correct. However, before the next event occurs talk to your management about getting some help from a mental health professional, to either 1) help him with his problem or 2)find out how to handle the person when the next event occurs. If the person is violent just terminating him may send him over th edge so you should contact a mental health professional.

Trinity · April 2003

Couple of questions: Why does the staff want to keep this guy around if he is so dangerously violent? Are they afraid of him, or do they think the whole deal is blown out of proportion? Also, was the man waving a knife threatening with it, or since he obviously works in the kitchen, was he upset and waving his hands and the knife happended to be in it? I am just trying to find a reason why the staff and management would want to keep him and the only reasons I can come up with are that they are too afraid to tell on him and get him fired, or the "knife fiasco" was a misunderstanding in their eyes..

My opinion would still be to fire him, as I wouldn't want the company to be liable should a fight really break out between this employee and the other one down the road and the company was seen as negligent. But sometimes upper management would rather have convenience than carefulness..best of luck.

Bizee1 · April 2003

Your er is putting itself in potential hot water by not terminating this person immediately. Whether the "staff" want him to stay on or not should not even be considered. The ee was in physical control of a weapon and used such weapon in a violent manner - even though it was just a threat. If your er is 'ok' with the fact that, say, in 6 months this ee actually goes through with that threat and injures someone, by all means keep him on board. But if that becomes a reality, your er is looking at losing out in court to the tune of lots and lots of money.

System · April 2003

I warned them about all the repercussions and they were recieved with a form of temporary deafness. The only defense I got for keeping him was that since the employees were not willing to sign anything then we were dealing with "just rumours". This, despite the witnesses etc. I am dealing with managers who hate H.R. bleeping on about lawsuits and liability, compliance et al. I have been looking for another job with no luck. Should I put something in writing to cover my patootie?
I saw on another post that Christy says that patootie is okay to use.

Hunter1 · April 2003

Do you have a violence in the workplace policy? If so, what does it say? Was the employee who waved the knife the same one who made the threats? Did co-workers feel threatened, or did the employee just happen to have a knife in his hand when he was gesturing? You cannot condone violence or threats in the workplace, but since his co-workers don't want anything done, maybe there's more here than meets the eye, unless they're intimidated by him. I'd suggest a very thorough investigation (maybe you can suspend him during the investigation) and severe discipline if there was, in fact, a threat.

System · April 2003

Yes it was the same guy and I do think the employees feel threatened since before the meeting one employee wanted to call the police. Of course she happened to be one of two ee' to stay behind and man the kitchen during the meeting.
We do have a violence in the workplace policy.
Freshest rumor about the guy; he spent two years in jail for beating his wife.
That in the last 1/2 hour.

jimlegal · April 2003

Document, document, document. I create something in writing documenting this event, just in case. The exposure for the company is off the chart! This employee should have been terminated. Any tpe of violence in the workplace cannot be tolerated. Just my two cents...

Zanne · April 2003

The large company I used to work with had a workplace violence policy that suspended the employee until he was able to attend an EAP session and the psychiatrist said he was able to return to work. (or not)

That seemed to work pretty good. We had two that went off the charts and didn't return for a while, during which they had anger management sessions.

I would document a lot.

Zanne

HRsage · April 2003

What does your workplace violence policy say? You have a policy but it's meaningless if you don't abide by it. And if the kitchen staff are the people determining your disciplinary process I'd be looking for another job too. They don't want him fired or written up so the company goes along with it? Ditto the other posts and at the very least document as much as possible to cover your caboose (you can use that term too, I think). Good luck.

Don D · April 2003

Sadly, we have been dumbed down to a point where certain behaviors have over time become 'acceptable' to a large segment of the workforce, or society as the case may be. Threatening to 'cut you', waving a knife, and even more unacceptable behavior is almost acceptable now with the oddest of rationales. This is probably where the other employees are coming from. The 'that's just Fred' syndrome at its worst. I equate this to the same rational as the one that reasons a person robs and carjacks is because of what society has done to him. So, in your case, 'Fred' had a bad day, he's behind in his bills, his woman's putting pressure on him and his hemorroids are acting up.......so, all he did was wave a little knife and say something he wished he could take back. Oh, by the way, fire him.

Gillian · April 2003

One more time - don't fire him without talking to a mental health professional who knows how to deal with violent people. You will get assistance so that it is done in a way which will lower the possibility of your company being the site of the next event - which may occur when he is fired. This advice has nothing to do with whether or not he should be fired - he should - but your responsibility, as it would be for any of the rest of us in a similar circumstance is to protect ourselves and others in our organizations so that we are not the next newspaper article about someone going back and shooting up the place.

ray a · April 2003

Recently, during our annual ISO 9000 audit, the outside auditor asked one of our supervisors how he handled training. He pulled a knife out of his pocket, opened it up and told her he puts them in a corner and cuts their knuckles if they screw up. She was aghast and our Quality Director who was accompanying her was mortified. The QD repeatedly told the supervisor to tell the auditor he was joking and to tell what he really did. He persisted with his little joke.

This auditor was a guest and had never met this supervisor before. It was not a good situation, it could have meant our failing the audit and losing our ISO certification which could have been disasterous to our business. Our VP was livid.

We decided to terminate his employment then allowed him to resign to save face.

I vote for termination. What happens if this character does it again and actually injures somebody. What is your liability then?

Crout · April 2003

Of course you should terminate immediately IF your investigation was sound and fair. If you are overruled by idiots it wouldn't be the first time that's happened to an HR professional. Make sure you express your misgivings in memo form up the chain-of-command and life goes on. Hopefully your job search will yield results. Good luck.

Gillian · April 2003

For the third time - don't terminate without first talking to a mental health professional. A competent one of those will tell anyone that asks that a firing may be the trigger that sends a violent person over the edge. This character should be fired but first find out how to deal with this kind of person, then the termination will occur in a way that minimizes the risk of violent behavior. When I was faced with this a couple of years ago the hugely potential violent person went out like a lamb and nothing happened afterwards.

System · April 2003

Intimidated employees and management won't be a defense if Mr.Violent decides to make good on the threat or threaten again (read hostile environment). Those intimidated employees may be quick to line up for a class action. Since it's your management's decision all you can do is give them your best professional advice. Remind them of their enormous liability. Get some professional help (EAP &/or security) if you're uncomfortable or unsure of Mr Violent's response. Fire him if it's in concert with your policy. If you don't have a policy I'd fire him anyway to protect the other employees. If they absolutely refuse to fire him, try to get the management to adopt a zero tolerance policy and advertise/train asap. Many times employees come from backgrounds that beget violent behavior. Sometimes if you explain that simply can not work in their employment world they actually may have a gestalt experience (ah hah!) and at least clean up their act at work. However, if Mr. Violent is working in the cafeteria at the local prison....well that's another story.

System · April 2003

Ok, heres the update.
First off, Gillian I would like to get an EAP but my managers dont. Their claim is that we are a non profit and struggling so we can't afford one. I have to admit my ignorance, I only found out what an EAP was about a week ago.
We have a very clear policy on violence and it says in no uncertain terms that this guy should be termed on the basis of his actions.
After tossing and turning all night I decided to take action. I wrote the Managers involved which included the GM a very clear e-mail of my objections to keeping the employee, in keeping with the policy and for the safety of our employees. Tell the truth I was shakin' in my boots, these guys hate being told about policies etc.
After they got the e-mail a flurry of meetings ensued with the guy, the indivuduals involved etc.
Many denials, accusations and so on later they termed him. Guess who got to deliver the news?
Thank all of you for your advice, you gave me the backbone when I needed it!

Gillian · April 2003

Next time, hopefully there won't be one, just get a consult. You don't need an EAP just someone who you can call on in the time of need.

HELP! violent employee

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