Male Perspective Sought

Paige · February 2003

I am really struggling with a couple of issues here at work and before I go into the whole dreaded mess--are there any males out there who have: 1)requested a salary increase in order to be more in line with their counterparts and/or 2)who have felt alienated from their "core group" of counterparts (whether that be a group of managers, upper level managers, VPs, etc.)?

How did you address these issues with your superior?

Crout · February 2003

I don't think I understand your question. What does this have to do with being a man? When you say "counterparts" are you referring to other males?

Paige · February 2003

>I don't think I understand your question. What does this have to do
>with being a man? When you say "counterparts" are you referring to
>other males?

When I say "counterparts" I mean co-workers with equal responsibility. Sorry I didn't clarify that.

I realize my question is vague, but I ask for 2 reasons. 1) I am the only female in a group of males--so how do I "speak" male.

And 2) I got to thinking--would a male ever really have dealt with these problems--money and the need for belonging?? (I don't mean to stereotype at all here--I am by no means a male basher.) Facts are facts and men typically don't get paid less than women. In addition, aren't men less emotional than women, so the need for belonging isn't as critical?

NOTE: I repeat--no bashing is intended here. I am just trying to get a point of view.

MrCreosote · February 2003

I was the second male hired into a company of 40+ women (in more ways than one.) I have had difficulty because I am used to being very direct. The culture here, which may or may not be due to the female majority, involves being very cautious of the feelings of others and never disagreeing with anyone. Gossip and backstabbing are used instead. I addressed this with my superior and she is sending me to a $1,400 teamwork class. (Do they teach backstabbing at teamwork school?)

I am replying to a specific question. Please don't anyone take this as a slight against an entire gender.

Don D · February 2003

40+ women (in more ways
>than one.)

This must be the day for questions. What does the above mean? Are there several ways women can be women?

Devika · February 2003

Don D, you ask, "Are there several ways women can be women?"

I think you should ask your father or, perhaps, an older brother.

Don D · February 2003

My father has been dead for 20 years and my older brother is younger. I do, however have one first ex-wife and one current wife, both women, and the current relationship is going on year 27 and produced a 24 year old daughter. I have assimilated quite enough knowledge about the subject over time, a lot of which I wish I'd never learned. x:-)

Crout · February 2003

I work in an office with 8 women, including my boss. While I don't think you can generalize this to ALL women, I have noticed differences in how the women in my office communicate. In fact, the experience has been rather educational. The women I work with are far less direct, and more likely to sugarcoat an issue. They also tend to avoid any confrontation that may become emotional. On the other hand, I have learned the value of tact, and the art of listening. On a personal note, they are all tremendous individuals and fine role models.

Don D · February 2003

Sounds like what we really need here is Dr. Phil and Dr. Laura. And let's add Maury to the mix too.

Sally · February 2003

Back to Paige's question, though.
As a woman, I think I understand what she is getting at. It boils down to equal pay for equal work, and how best to communicate that. Fortunately for me, the one time I needed to communicate that to my supervisor, I put it in terms of 'do you think it is the right and fair thing to do' that the male with less experience, less responsibility, and shorter tenure with the organization be paid more than I? My supervisor listened, agreed, and made the salary adjustment. A bigger clue to the type of person he is, though--I found out later he took a salary freeze in order to do that.

Don D · February 2003

So.....are you girls imagining 'booger bears' that aren't really out there? Sounds to me that if a woman knows she is paid less than an 'equal' male counterpart, she ought to be about the business of bringing it to the attention of the head of HR immediately and asking for an explanation, and a correction. By the way, the highest paid HR people I've ever known or heard of are female. Pleeeeze though, no lengthy historical lessons on women being paid less than men in years past.

Sally · February 2003

Don, I wouldn't dream of trying to give you history lesson. Especially after reading some of your recent ones. I have a BA in history and an MA in costume design with a lot of costume history as part of that, but I am no match for you! Especially not on a Friday afternoon.
But if you want to know why men's coats button to the right or why men's and women's sleeves in the 1500s looked like they'd been shredded, I can tell you that!

Don D · February 2003

Ha! Sally, you got me there. I wouldn't dream of asking out loud why something buttons or zips one way or the other. I am a staunch supporter of equal pay and will go to bat for anyone who is not paid on a basis of equality, period. I went through that battle alongside my wife a number of years ago. I'm just saying that if someone feels they are unfairly paid on that basis, no matter which side the shirt buttons on, he OR she should take it by the ah, horns, and get it corrected.

Crout · February 2003

This brings me back to my first post. We should not have to de-code Paige's post to figure out what she REALLY means. She should just go ahead and tell us. Hey Paige, if you're being paid less than your male peers you might do well to listen to Sally about how to approach the topic, and if you can't get an explnation or satisfaction find an attorney.

Paige · February 2003

Sally & Crout--thanks for bringing things back on track.

Don--I AM the head of HR. And my supervisor is also the supervisor to the 2 male "counterparts" that I am speaking of.

Briefly--My 2 male "counterparts" get paid more than I do. I don't neccesarily associate this to discrimination because 1) we all hold 3 different positions (but are "in line" with each other if you were to see an organizational chart and our level of responsibility is similar) and 2) we have no set salary structure in place here and salaries are assigned at random. I would like to bring this to the attention of my supervisor (the CEO) without it sounding like I'm accusing them of discrimination.

The other issue--I am sortof "left out" of the group when it comes to doing lunch, talking casually, whatever. OK, fine--if they prefer to be in the company of men at those times, fine. However, don't alienate me and leave me all by my lonesome hear at work. I need feedback. I need to feel included. But hey--is that just a female thing?

So, I want to broach these subjects with my supervisor--head of the good 'ole boys club--without sounding like a blubbering female. In the past, he and I have had a good relationship--when I first started 2 years ago, he sought my advice, confided in me in confidential matters, my 90-day eval was glowing (haven't had one since). However, over the past year or so that has all gone by the wayside.

Does this help to clear anything up?

JEBtrois · February 2003

Let me try a different perspective...I don't think this has anything at all to do with sex. Rather it is possible that this is about what department you represent at the table. You have noted that behavior has changed over the course of the past year. I would submit that it may be due to the interaction that you had while you were previously at the table; instead of about your being a woman. This is NOT an attack on you, so please don't read it as such.

Stereotypically speaking, depending on the age of your CEO, he or she will tend to be more stalwart the older he/she is. The past year has been very tough for CEO types. Mounting financial pressures, coupled with uncertainty in the marketplace have made most CEOs retract a bit. Accordingly, my guess is that when "the good old boys" get together they are frequently blowing off steam and/or strategizing about business...and they don't see that HR needs to be at that table. Why they don't think you need to be there is as much a mystery to me as it is to you. However, in my own experience, executives frequently view HR as too touchy feely for tough business decisions. Accordingly, HR comes into the picture way too late to really help. Rather, HR is left to figure out how to do damage control AFTER the decisions have been made.

Don't make this about sex...rather make it about your personal approach to the business world and about how does that approach jive with the corporate culture where you work. My guess is that they MAY not be the same. So, when what the table NEEDS is professional dissention, what they get/want is a feel good from each other because they all agree on the best business course of action.

Of course I could be completely wrong, it's happened before. However, as to the pay itself...I have 7 direct reports ranging from the Risk Manager to the SVP Finance. Ostensibly, all live on the same "row" on the Org Chart and hence, could argue for equal pay. However, their jobs are vastly different with incredible differences in level of accountability and responsibility. Salaries are competitive with their same counterparts in other institutions of like size and complexity, but NOT AT ALL with each other regardless of where they live on the org chart. We pay for the job and what the going rate is for that job, not for the rank on the org chart.

Trinity · February 2003

For a long time I was one of 11 females in a 150 employee shipping company, and was the lone female in my dept. I often had to go to my supervisor with questions or problems and found out that the best way to communicate with him was to be direct and to have all my ducks in a row. He wanted facts and data to support my statements and if I wanted a situation dealt with, I needed to let him know straight up. I also saw that with alot of the "good ole boys" in the office, this was the way they communicated and so if I wanted to get my way or point across I needed to adapt. As I come from a tomboy upbringing it wasn't that hard.
I might add that now I work for a CU that is 90% women and the way I have to communicate is completely different. Here, more concern is giving to "feelings" and I find that I have to sandwich some of my critiques or problems with encouragement so as not to offend my female co-workers. Neither gender has a better way of communicating, just different and it helps to be flexible enough to adapt to the atmosphere of the office.

Don D · February 2003

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 02-21-03 AT 02:09PM (CST)[/font][p]Paige: First, I have the same situation you have with pay not equaling the structure of the organizational chart. I don't think I'm alone in saying that you must view your salary in comparison with others in similar positions in your labor market area. Use whatever figures you must to reinforce your argument, but, the figures must compare apples to apples, not boxes to boxes. You may find that for HR Managers your salary is perfectly in line. You are competing in the marketplace with other HR Managers, not with the males who appear perfectly horizontal to your position on the chart. That is irrelevant in your approach to your boss. And he will likely tell you that. On our chart, my position appears equal to the female head of IS, whose salary is at least 10k higher than mine. My position is also of equal 'rank' to that of the Controller who is a CPA and whose pay outdistances my own by several thousand. Another example is a manufacturing director who actually functions at a VP level and whose pay outdistances all of the other three I referenced. So, it's not possible to use an org chart in the argument.

Second, I do not recommend you approach the boss or the guys by 'asking' or 'suggesting' that they include you. That's demeaning to you and won't get you anywhere. That will drive a wedge where probably one does not even exist. I'm saying this from my male perspective considering what my reaction would be to a similar 'confrontation', and that may be how they perceive it. I understand what the lady meant with the tomboy reference. Here I go out on my often traveled limb, but if a woman felt uncomfortable around a group she perceived me to be in, the best way for me to open up to her might be for her to walk up to me and say, "Look, ahole, is there some reason you didn't ask me to go with ya'll for a burger yesterday. What if I promised to pay for them?" I would laugh WITH her and probably ask her first next time. If that's not exactly your vocabulary, fine, find what will work best for you. If you are "asking to be one of the boys. You gotta be willing to be one of the boys." I do hope you are wrong about them knowingly excluding you. But if I'm not, ya gotta be assertive. Whether we like it or not, people assemble in groups. Children play in groups and old people sit in groups in nursing homes. Anyone who feels excluded and really wants to be included should just drag up a chair and contribute on the same level as they see the group contributing. Where is Ritaanz when we need that Jersey advice?

Balloonman · February 2003

Well I have not ever been in Paige's situation but up until my last job I was always on an island as the safety manger/director or whatever I was called. No peer group, really sucked at times.
However, back to Paige's question and my suggestion. Assumming these are okay guys, and what not, pick a day next week when you know they don't have stuff scheduled at lunch. Ask one of them or say 'Hey I have been hungry for Chinese/burger etc, I didn't bring lunch today so you want to grab a bite? If they say yes, ask think Don is interested? (He will be as hey if one is going.)
Use this approach for a bit, and I am willing to bet that soon you will be invited also.

I was fortunate, that when I did not have peer groups I had a professional organization that I belonged to as well as a solid structure of friends not work related. It can be tough though. And when I had no peer group 1/2 the times I worked in all female HR departments, guess who got called when something had to be lifted!!!!

My $0.02 worth.
DJ The Balloonman

PS. Don it is amazing that one ball gag comment can stop a thread dead!

Don D · February 2003

Don't think I didn't notice that!!

Paige · February 2003

Great feedback, Don--that's exactly what I'm looking for--something from the male perspective. And you bring up a good point about not looking at myself compared to others in the company--I need to go out and compare myself to others in the community.

As far as being a part of the group, however--I guess what I'm driving at is not to be included on a personal level (while that would be nice, I totally understand what you mean by if I want to be one of the boys, I have to act like one of the boys), but to be included, like I was before, when it comes to work issues. Why don't they seek my advice anymore? Why do I not get brought into confidential matters? I have never betrayed their confidence. I guess I feel like I've just gone by the wayside. Maybe when I was new, and because they didn't have in HR person in place prior to me, it was like getting a new toy--you give it a lot of attention at first, but then after awhile, it just sits in the toybox.

Don D · February 2003

Maybe it's just a man thing. But you ain't the lone ranger! I can't speak for women, obviously, but insecure, dishonest men who have somehow landed positions of responsibility and some authority have a tendency to embrace only animals who look like themselves. The old false sense of security thing. Does that make sense? IF that's the case where you are, they are not rejecting YOU. Simply, they are not embracing something that perhaps to them represents either (1)stability, (2) the unknown, (3)credibility or (4) a challenge to their illconceived sense of superiority. (Steve Mc is scratching his head!)

But, listen to me, this is not a woman thing. Some men will stand-you-off if they feel threatened by you and your position. Probably they want you to resemble the last guy who was there who listened to their jokes and unprofessional conduct without challenging it and they sense you might not do that. I can tell you that when I got here three years ago next week, all the manufacturing supervisors and directors and half the other male managers took a long 'wait and see' look at me to see if I would be a clone of the clown who preceded me here. A manufacturing environment loaded with testosterone thrives on such mushroom food. Did I care? Sure. Did I care enough to be a clown clone. Nope. I sort of enjoy being distanced from some of them because I see it as a mantle to my integrity here. I can live with that.

If that's what's going on where you are, sing it's praises. If not, give it time and the good guys will welcome your credibility and they'll come around. The ONLY thing you can do to influence it is continue to make contributions built on credibility and professionalism. I have found quite a few of the guys here to be people of credibility and honesty. Regarding those who are not, I just remind myself that the day comes to an end eventually. If the numbers got too whopsided here, I would leave. I can suffer along with a few people who have zero credibility, but only a few.

ritaanz · February 2003

I know you asked for a male's point of view, but that never stopped me before. x:P In almost all of the jobs I have had, I was usually the only female. The one thing I learned very quickly is that if you present yourself as the only female in the group, you will be treated acordingly. It is your responsibility to encourage and establish a comfort level with them. In order to be invited to be part of the lunch group or the coffee break you need to let them (or at least one of them) know. Contrary to legend, men do not have crystal balls.

Don D · February 2003

Some people have a way of making up for a two-day absence in one fell swoop of the pen. Class, I think the teacher has spoken.

Balloonman · February 2003

Don I would have been disappointed if you did not notice! You made some good points also. There is always 1 that you should be able to identify as a good one who is not insecure and will value the new person (my I am getting politically correct) and respect them for what they do and who they are. It may take some time, hang in there.
My $0.02 worth.
DJ The Balloonman

Be warned Don, I have a pocket full of change today! x;-)

Mentel · February 2003

There is still one item that no one has addressed. That is the fact that you have been there two years and have had only one six month review. If you firm does not have a policy and procedure for annual reviews, it is up to you to see that it is done. THAT IS YOUR JOB! Get going on this ASAP and find out what the boss thinks of you. He may just see you as a paper pusher if you are not coming up with positive changes for the firm. This can put you in a bad light and come off as a light weight. If you take the lead on some of these issues, you will be seen as a mover and shaker. Don't hide your light under a bushel. The best way to get noticed and be one of the 'guys' is to forward thinking.

mbeam · February 2003

Would agree with several of the comments listed. I used to be in the financial sector of the business before making the move to HR. One of the biggest ways to get included (am also the lone female VP of the group) is to understand the business in general. You will be seen as a go-to person if you can present information in a format that encompasses the big picture and shows results (would recommend showing turnover %'s, retention rates, environmental surveys, etc.) These are things that will back up what you're doing and convert it to $ and ratio's that can be communicated back to the Board.

The other recommendation (as mentioned before) is to get information from local Chamber of Commerce's and HR consulting firms for pay ranges. It's the going market rate for the position that will dictate what is paid (along with prior experience and education).

Would also concur with enforcing the reviews - one of the first things I heard when I moved into the HR role. To help our managers, we brought in a professor from the university, revamped the evaluations based on their feedback and log in the reviews. It is also noted in my monthly report how many we have completed and communicated to the managers as well.

Have also heard of companies that do not put in any salary increases for that particular company (or department) until the reviews are in. Those managers who haven't completed their forms are posted on the co. website. It's not something that we are looking to do as it wouldn't fit with our culture.

sandra_d · February 2003

I was in a situation where I felt I was being disregarded time and time again when it came to issues that were critical to the operation of my department, or that my department would be impacted in a big way. As the HR Director, I was very concerned why I was being overlooked in the planning and strategizing of things - so I simply asked my boss (the CEO) ... "From my perspective, a number of things have happened in this company in the last six months which significantly affected me and my department (such as x, y, and z), and not only did I not have a chance to participate in the planning for these events, but some of them I didn't even know in advance before you implemented them. I feel it is important that I be involved in such things because ... Have I fallen short in my job performance? Or is there any other reason you've excluded me from participating in these events?"

In my case anyway, it turns out that he simply always did a lot of brain-storming with his work buddies amongst the "guy" chit-chat, and claimed to not realize that I had consistently been overlooked. He became more sensitive about including me - he didn't always remember, but it was generally less critical issues that I was left out on.

Good luck to you.

sonny · February 2003

I like Sandra's idea. I am a believer in "going to the source." You note things have changed. .it used to be better. What would happen in a one on one where you take Sandra's approach and just ask flat out What's changed and why. I do wish you luck. I went from an agency that was predominently female to one that operates largely under the old boy culture. It was quite a culture shock to me, but it is improving, largely do I think to the honest communication of myself and some other women.

BISD · February 2003

Please allow this female to respond with a life experience. I enjoyed working in this office as an assistant superintendent for twelve years under two male bosses. Things change and a new male boss was hired with a different set of beliefs. Our office went from two assistant superintendents to four all paid the same. I am the only female. One of the new assistant superintendents is one of those office clowns who is a real socializer, noisy, needs loads of attention, and has on several occasions planned a meal for our office as well as another branch. He always asks the other two assistant superintendents to help with the meal. Then they hang pictures in the hallways dipicting what appears to be the great fun they had. When I complained to my boss about not be included as a team member in these social events and, most particularly, a recent breakfast for our building, he suggested it didn't matter. He considered it just a social thing. The boss suggested I come in through the back door or plan my own party. I believe it is more than a social issue. The meals are occuring at work, the pictures are hung at work and obviously, one assistant is being left out. I e-mailed the clown and simply told him I wanted to be included in the latest event, a breakfast for our offices. I realize this was not exactly a back door approach. I ruined his plan, because the meal was billed as being cooked by "The Three Musketeers." I wanted to be included not because I wanted to be a Muskateer, but because I think it is important that I am viewed as much a part of this administrative team as the next assistant superintendent. They had to go buy another hat and wig. I then planned a breakfast for secretaries day and called each of the other assistant superintendents to see if they wanted to be a part of the up coming celebration. Of course, they did. I showed them the correct way to treat others, but I can't say that it makes me feel any better. I feel that deep down, the clown assistant superintendent resents me for intruding on his fun territory and that somehow, competition has been elevated to who can plan the bigger party rather than the work we do. I have not resovled my issue to my satisfaction. Good luck with yours. I have had it both ways: I've worked with men and felt very much a part of the team, now, I am working with men and feel left out much of the time. I am the same person. When you get your answer, maybe it will help me.

xsafford · February 2003

Here's a perspective from an alpha male who's worked in large groups of like minded alpha males and some really good females. What you are experiencing may not even be a gender issue. For upper level management, salary justice sometimes has to be fought for. It's one of the tests you have on the way up. Polite and respectful doesn't always do the job. Occaisionally it is necessary to pick your spot and get a little nasty. That's the only thing some bosses will respond to, and top management won't take you seriously until they have seen you tested by just this kind of difficult situation. When you have the courage to stand up for yourself, you will find that your boss and your peers will respect you more, they will seek out and respect your opinion more, and you will generally have more clout in the organization. Don't be a doormat. Get mad - take charge of the situation and make something happen. A woman who can command respect among a group of strong men is exceptional. She will do very well in most organizations.

Male Perspective Sought

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