Can I Terminate

Cindy Hanna · January 2003

I am hoping someone will help me with this situation.

We have safety training meetings annually. I had ask our wc carrier to come in and conduct the meetings and they did. I had 4 meetings over 4 days. The training went really well except for the last one. One of the employees came in 10 minutes late sat down for maybe 3 minutes and started yelling and pounding his chest about corporate greed, how much the government stunk, and so on. No one could believe this was happening. I asked him what the problem was and he started going off again about how management should be making decisions for them when there out on the job site, how the dispatchers make them work in unsafe working conditions. He did this last year and I conducted an investigation on the plant that he works at and turned up nothing. The things that he was saying involved his co-workers and I asked them about it and they said nothing like that had ever happened. Again I asked his co-workers about a different situation that he brought up and again nothing like that happened. Can I terminate him? He is in a protected class he is over 40. He causes alot of problems but the supervisor never writes him up.

Balloonman · January 2003

So you even have an independent outside party who was present and can give a statement to what happened, that is great. Not knowing past practices, etc., myself, I would not get hung up to much that he is over 40, people worry way to much about protected classes. You cannot fire people for those reasons that are protected, ie you can't fire him for being over 40, but you sure can fire him for insubordination, refusing to follow orders assuming he continued to be disruptive through out the meeting etc.
I would want to know about past practices, and why is the supervisor never writing him up if he is a problem employee. That might cause you a problem, I can hear an attorny saying how this wonderful employee worked for the company for years, was never written up and then because he speaks his mind at a training function is fired.
If you decide you are not comfortable with firing I would sit down and give a written warning discussion inappropriate behavior, things like that etc., make it clear that future outbursts like this will result in termination. I would also have a very open discussion with the supervisor to find out why he/she is not doing their job.
My $0.02 worth.
DJ

teecee · January 2003

As little as four weeks ago, I would have said, "What does the handbook say?" But, now I know from a recent situation, that if you're in an at-will state, handbooks, policy, etc. don't mean jack. If you want to term, you can even term in violation of your own blasted policy- forget the three warnings and you're out stuff, etc. It doesn't matter. You can term for any reason or for no reason and you don't even have to follow your own policy.

Pork · January 2003

TEECEE: That is some strong words of advice! I am in an at will state and have faced several charges and protected the actions of the company very well because I was able to stand behind Policy and handbooks. It appears that maybe you should sit out for a few more weeks of reading this net before you jump in with such words!!! My 62 years and 28 years of experience in this old HR working world, who knows maybe just maybe I have some good words of advice, PORK

Hunter1 · January 2003

The answers you get will say: Policy, Policy, Policy. And, that's where you have to start. Suggestion for the next time if there is one: Before you do your next training, give him a direct order to participate reasonably in the session and reference his behavior this time. If he disobeys, you have insubordination, which may be a better cause for termination.

Don D · January 2003

I will surprise you and not say policy, policy, policy. I will say that I like Hunter's suggestion. We have a similar employee who typically used any seminar or group setting as his opportunity to 'hold court' and monopolize the conversation. He has been told that he is not to repeat that behavior and it has worked so far, twice. I have had to caution him once by telling him, "Larry, we will discuss that off line after the meeting, see me at 3:30." If he had not responded to that admonition I would have asked him to leave the room.

What I imagine would be problematic in your terminate-decision might be that he could show he has always had good evals or never had problems and that you have held such meetings and encouraged the group to speak freely. I would approach it as Hunter suggested. He will play you like a guitar if you approach it otherwise. Just my opinion.

Paul in Cannon Beach · January 2003

Sounds like you have a history of problems and a very recent serious incident with this employee.

I suppose your next step will be determined by whether you feel you can/should salvage this employee. If you want to get rid of him, start the paper trail and be real clear about expectations. If you want to work with him, maybe he needs to contact your EAP and work through these emotional outbursts.

Regardless of what you do, I would take steps to ensure that you have a safe workplace and that there is no further escalation.

Paul

Cindy Hanna · January 2003

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR ADVISE. I THINK WHAT I AM GOING TO DO IS WRITE HIM UP AND LET HIM KNOW THE NEXT TIME THIS HAPPENS HE WILL BE TERMINATED. IF I FIRE HIM NOW HE WILL TAKE US TO COURT. HE'S THAT TYPE OF PERSON. I JUST WISH HIS SUPERVISOR WOULD WRITE HIM UP WHEN HE ACTS UP.

Pork · January 2003

CINDY: I for one would never terminate anyone unless I was the appointed investigating officer with the power to terminate, if the results of the investigation warranted that action. Training /HR personnel are not normally located within the chain of command. I would write his supervisor/manager/department head a letter and provide the neccessary facts and allow the "chain of command" to take responsibility for the actions. This just might be the necessary information that the "Head" needs to finish the ee's career with your company.

I maintain a seperation of "power and authority" and my corporate role as the HR. I advise "DON'T GET CAUGHT UP IN THE $&#* OF RATS"! Keep your "arms length distance" to discipline so that you can be the counsel that you should be. Kick the student out of the classroom, but don't be the "hatchet man" unless that is your appointed role of the CEO! A different thought, but it has worked for me for many, many years. Pork

Parabeagle · January 2003

Possible problem number two: If this yahoo is blathering on specifically about being made to work in "unsafe conditions", he might just claim he was terminated for participating in protected activity, i.e., complaining about working conditions. Even though you've got a good paper trail to disprove his complaints, it's still a pain in the posterior, not to mention sometimes costly, to defend yourself against frivolous claims. Been there. Done that.

Paul in Cannon Beach · January 2003

Good point Parabeagle.

Patti · January 2003

I agree with Pork. Don't play the bad guy unless you are forced. I would document everything that has happened. I would write him up, to start the document trail, and I would also have a talk with his boss. Was his boss at this meeting?

Mentel · January 2003

Have you considered writing up this guy's boss for not doing his job? You may need to go higher up the food chain to get this resolved if the immediate supervisor is a wimp.

Trinity · January 2003

If this man is being insubordinate, you have cause to write him up, regardless of whether he is participating in protected activity. But due to your lack of documentation, I would hold off on the termination until I had more to back me up. I agree with the previous post in that in addition to disciplining this man for insubordination, I would take a strong look at why his manager has not written him up before now, especially if he has caused problems before. Sounds like you may have a manager who needs some training on confrontation, and discipline matters.

Can I Terminate

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