I-9 Identity Crisis

Ruskanen · August 2002

This situation is hypothetical of course...let's say I had a friend who worked for a manufacturing company. The company was informed by the Social Security administration that there were some discrepancies in the names and social security numbers of some of their employees. The employees were given 30 days to correct the error and provide proper documentation to prove they corrected the error. What if at the end of the 30 days, two employees came forward with a state ID with their photo, but a totally different name, and a legal social security card with a name matching the name on the state ID, and then claimed to be US Citizens? What can you do? They are providing proper documentation. We can not ask them to produce more identification if what they provide is sufficient to fill out the I-9. What my friend suspects is that they convinced someone to let them borrow their legal identity to continue working. But how can you prove that? The company does not want to fire these people for falsification of records/dishonesty (the logic is the reason they falsified documents was to gain employment and they have proven to be good, long term employees) if they are able to continue working legally because they are valuable employees.

HS · August 2002

>What if at the end of the 30 days, two employees came forward with a state ID >with their photo, but a totally different name, and a legal social security
>card with a name matching the name on the state ID, and then claimed
>to be US Citizens? What can you do? They are providing proper
>documentation. We can not ask them to produce more identification if
>what they provide is sufficient to fill out the I-9.

The 'new names' are different from the ones originally supplied, correct? I would want to know what their 'real names' were. We had a situation recently similar to this, and we did terminate 2 individuals: for false or misleading information on the application. Regardless of how good these employees are, if they are here illegally, you have an obligation to let them go for not supplying you with truthful information. In light of the upcoming anniversary on September 11th, I'd think your friend would want to do this.

This is all hypothetical of course, but for "homeland security" purposes, I wouldn't want anyone who is not legally able to be or work in this country at my corporation. I wouldn't want to be held liable.

Don D · August 2002

I think technically your friend is required to dismiss the ee as soon as she learns that the workers fraudulently secured employment at the company. The fact that they now present additional documents I don't think disolves their earlier fraud, it simply seems to prove it. I don't think the government would accept the explanation that we are employing someone who obviously at one time or the other presented documents to the company that were not his in an effort to fraudulently obtain work. Good workers or not, I wouldn't want to suffer the consequences of not terminating them and I think that's what the INS would expect your friend to have done.

Ruskanen · August 2002

This is taken from the following link: http//www.ins.usdoj.gov/graphics/howdoi/faqeev.htm

DISCOVERING FALSE DOCUMENTATION
False documentation includes documents that are counterfeit or those that belong to someone other than the employee who presented them. It occasionally happens that an employee who initially presented false documentation to gain employment subsequently obtains proper work authorization and presents documentation of this work authorization. In such a case, U.S. immigration law does not require the employer to terminate the employee’s services. However, an employer’s personnel policies regarding provision of false information to the employer may apply. The employer should correct the relevant information on the Form I-9.

Don D · August 2002

Typically, a person who will defraud you in one instance, will in another, and another. Some people play a shell game of trying to get hired and when they don't pick the right shell, they want to turn over another shell. It occurs to me that there is an obvious pattern of behavior here; first they got into the country illegally, then they probably rented a residence illegally and you know they got you to hire them illegally. Why then would they not steal your impact wrench or that nice $400 ratchet set over in maintenance? We have some who giggle through the pee test and when they turn up positive ask, 'Can't I try it just one more time, maybe tomorrow?' They just don't get it. It's hard to believe that the INS would consider prior document fraud to be expunged by a second attempt to 'get it right'. The fact remains that the 'hypothetical' company did at one time hire illegals. Except for the fact that a law is involved, I think this is no different from confronting an employee with his falsified application and he takes it from you and says, "Oh, let me correct that." x:o

Mel in CO · August 2002

Unfortunately, it is my understanding that the company will need to terminate these individuals because of previous falsification of records. I used to work in a manufacturing organization with the same problem. Normally you can investigate if the individual is or is not legal with the documentation that they bring through background check services (i.e. see if birth dates and the date the SS# was issued to ensure that they match) and by simple regulations that INS utilizes when issuing green cards (i.e. the number and sequence of the characters on the back of the card, the seals on the card, etc.) Never less, the company will probably have to terminate employment based on falsification of records. It would be the same case if someone stated on an application that they were never convicted of a felony however the employer finds out after the fact that they have been convicted of a felony previously. Again, that is falsification of records.

Case In Point:

The manufacturing firm that I worked for hired many Spanish speaking only employees who would work in the US for 1/2 of the year and then go back home to Mexico during the winter months when our manufacturing business slowed down. We had a young gal that worked for us for two years -- each time utilizing a false green and SS card unknowingly to the organization. When she came back to work for us the third year, we ran another background check to ensure that she didn't have any records. She didn't and we subsequently hired her back again -- she was a great employee. About 1 week later, the police came to our facility to inform us that she was an illegal immigrant. We unfortunately had to terminate her employment for two reasons; one, it is illegal for any organization to have illegal immigrants working for them and secondly, she had falsified her records.

About 2 months later, she came back to the facility to speak with me. This time she had 2 new identities. First she presented me with a new green card and SS card (with her picture) but under a different name than what I knew her as. I asked her if this was her true name / identity. She stated that it was. I did a quick check of the SS# in my background system and discovered that the SS# was issued prior to her birth date. I informed her of this discrepancy and asked her again if that was her true identity. She did confess that it was not. She then presented me with another green card and SS# with her picture. I informed her at that time that we would be unable to hire her back with our organization because she had (and was continuing) to falsify her records / identity. I also had to do a little bit of explaining of US company laws because she was very upset and didn't understand why she could not be hired again. It was a difficult situation however it did save the organization that I was working for time, money, and legal headaches.

I hope this helps out with your ‘hypothetical’ question.

tfevergrn · August 2002

Our payroll company recently informed us that the Social Security Administration will be fining companies for all mis-matched social security numbers. The fine notices will start to go out to employers in 2004 for the year 2002, two years later. In light of this and everything else that is going on, can an employer make it policy, after hiring a new employee, to require the new employee to provide us with their actual social security card, for copying and payroll purposes? This would be separate from asking for document proof of eligibility to work in the U.S. for I-9 purposes.

Thanks in advance for your help.

cebudragonlady · August 2002

Mismatches ! I have reminded and reminded our plant's employees that names have to mnatch on the W-2's and Social Security Cards - all in vain. Either they don't do anything or don't report any resolution to me - I don't know which. Wouldn't it be simpler to just change the names on the Paychecks/ W-2's to AGREE to those on the Social Security Cards ? Can I do that ?

Thanks,
Dragonlady

tfevergrn · August 2002

Anyone out there who can answer my question?

meat_n_tators · August 2002

After reading through all the replys, I believe you've been given some sound advice. However unpopular, it's time to terminate their employment and get on with your business.

Pork · August 2002

There is a catch to all this! If you discover by some means that false documents have been used to qualify the I-9 and you have a company policy which allows for termination based on the falsification then terminate and you have not violated National Orgin or Race concerns. however, if hired and the employee who is a otherwise good employee confesses and seeks a change in status to become a legal alien you now have a differednt "bird in your hand". There is a U.S. Department of Labor Employment and Training Administration APPLICATION FOR ALIEN EMPLOYMENT CERTIFICATION form which once complete and documented (with appropriate documentation provided to you by the "illegal alien employee" which atest to the real identity of the employee) is sent in to INS or state employment commissions for processing gives you the company and the employee protection under the federal law. It requires the company to basically hold the employee in place and allow the employee to remain at work and drawing an income while the application is being processed. It will take well over a year as we are now experiencing to get the status change. The employee is protected from any harassment for national orgin issues, the company is protected from any "wrong doing" in our original hiring. You get to keep the good employee and terminate the bad employee for performance issues and to after the termination notify the INS of the termination and last known address of the x-employee illegal alien and any forwarding address for w-2 purposes that might come your way. We have terminated and cancelled 6 applications, we currently have about 8 in place and working.

Once the change in status has been completed (approved by INS & SS Administration) and a new ID with good SSN is identified and provided by INS, we then make a correction of the name and SSN in our personnel and payroll records programs, once a quarter and we go on about our business. The individual then has a job, but has another problem with taxes. Most of the time the taxes paid and never filed under the old name and SSN can now be attached to a new name and SSN. Money owed by the illegal name is now owed by the new name and new SSN. However, this is not the concern of the company. We have followed the laws of I-9 and Title VII and payroll taxes.

Bottom line of the 1.6 million illegals in our country and working the vast majority are otherwise good people. For the moment, just imagine the impact of INS removing these people out of the work force and into a pen for processing, alot of us employers would be hurting and unable to immediately replace these good and hard working employees! Good Luck

RYA in Buford · August 2002

It is my understanding that if an employee presented you with a false green card, the employee must present a valid form of the same. If they come back a week later with an ID card and Social Security Card with a different name, this is not acceptable. That's the way I would handle it because they previously presented me with a resident alien, permanent resident, or work authorization card.

Don D · August 2002

I agree. I really think the process Pork mentioned is intended to allow a reasonable period of time to get records straight, not to give those who defraud a mandatory free pass. There's no way this process requires the employer to ignore the prior fraud.

Pork · August 2002

Problem is you don't know the original green card is false and you are not required to research. If they present you with different information after you have already hired the employee but do not ask for "assistance and a change in status application IAW Federal law you could probably terminate; however, under oath you might not be able to defend yourself against a discrimination charge for terminating a National Orgin protected person!

RYA in Buford · August 2002

It is my understanding that if someone presents you with a false resident alien, permanent resident, or work authorization card, they must present you with a legal form of the same. If they come back with a valid state ID and a social security card that is verifiable and claim to be citizens, they must present you with citizenship papers. If they cannot, the new documents are unacceptable. This is the way I would handle it.

meat_n_tators · August 2002

RE: Pork.
How many other "illegal" activities are similarly OK? I'd kinda like to know just "how criminal" an employee should be allowed to be?
Excuse my sarcasm, but what the heck is wrong with holding people accountable for acts of fraud against an employer and a nation?

Ruskanen · August 2002

In a perfect world, this wouldn't be a problem. But, if it weren't for the people that come to this country to look for work, legally or illegally, we wouldn't be able to staff our plant, many buildings wouldn't get built, and prices of fruit and vegetables would be sky high. I wish I could staff my company with people that didn't have these issues with their ID. But, American Citizens don't want the work. They have attendance and discipline problems, or they plain don't like the work. Just yesterday I was going to drive one of our Temp-to-hires down to our clinic to do the Pre-Employment physicals. When we got in the car, this employee said, "I'm sorry, but you don't need to take me to the clinic. I won't pass the drug screen." He was an American Citizen. When the company first starting hiring hispanics, the staffing manager did her best to make sure everyone had proper ID. At the time, her best wasn't good enough and we unknowingly hired illegals. Those people have been here for 3 years or more and have risen to top positions in our company. Not because they were terrorists in the making, but because they were good workers. It was a shame to lose all that talent and it will take us a long time to build up that senority again with new employees. If it didn't take over a year just to get a work visa, maybe more people would actually do it the legal way. I don't envy them at all for all the red tape they have to go through. We need the workers and they need work. It seems like a mutually beneficial relationship to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we want hire illegals, we're just trying to correct errors that happened years ago. These people aren't here because they want to be. How desperate would you have to be to want to support your family that you would be motivated to risk your life to go to a country illegally, where you don't speak the language and you know you will be subject to discrimination and live below the poverty level in a small house with 5 other people? Stop and think what a person's situation must be to motivate them to do that.

Don D · August 2002

I misunderstood. I thought the original question was what to do when you discover that you hired someone based on the production of fraudulent identification in violation of United States Laws. A company's decisions and policies in matters as critical and legal as this one cannot be driven by emotion. x:-)

Lori B · August 2002

ooh, hot topic.

I agree that employers should terminate these folks for fraudulent applications.

I am mindful though that some of these folks are the absolute hardest working people you will ever have the pleasure of employing. I do not view these folks in the same category as those who are swiping the tools. Far from it. At the end of the day though, people who submit fraudulent docs to me need to be fired.

Don D · August 2002

Lori: I fully agree with you regarding the resourcefulness and work ethic of some of the illegals I have come across, no matter where they are from. However, I was comparing behaviors, not individuals. Stealing tools and presenting false documents to the company are equally significant behavioral reasons for termination. The underlying logic of both is irrelevant. When we discipline with consistency, we should be comparing behaviors, not individuals or perceived reasons for the behavior. If we don't, we tend to lose sight of consistency in our processes and we give way to emotions and other non-objective and often indefensible positions. Just a Friday opinion x:-).(I heard a judge say, "I cannot excuse running the redlight, no matter whether you were rushing to the store for baby formula or you were joy riding and drinking beer - both behaviors violate our ordinances.)

Pork · August 2002

Lori, I too agree that we do not need current criminals; however, we should start the process by stoping the illegals from buying these documents, we need to satisfy the I-9 requirement, a federal law. I have been in this business for 25 years and add to this my military credentials of 22 years it hurts me to know we have some bad people in our own country. My hispanics have informed me they buy these documents for $500.00 in Houston, San Antonio, Brownsville, El Paso, etc. For $1500.00 a completely new ID could be provided from within the Embassy in Mexico. This information has been correct and one individual is now in prison. It has not stopped! I have reported my information to my Congressmen and INS. I have identified the bad employee to INS as they have left us. We will continue to hire those with reasonable documents IAW I-9 and until the law is closed to allow for a change in an illegal's status we will continue to process the applications, and use the employee for the betterment of all concerned.

Gillian · August 2002

If this is a duplicate post, please excuse but I got a message about an internal server problem, whatever that means, and I can't confirm that the previous post went where it was supposed to.

This is a hot issue and will continue to heat up because the Social Security Department is sending out letters about mismatched Social Security numbers. The bottom line is that we must follow the law and the law requires that we can only employ people who have the legal right to work in the US, and when we find out that someone doesn't have that right we must terminate, no matter how hard it is to do that.

Having said that, I have trouble viewing most of these individuals as being fraudulent, or dishonest for that matter. Our economy is based on immigrants working for low wages and it has been this way for decades. This will not change no matter how many roadblocks we erect. They come here because there are no opportunities at home and the vast majority of them sent the money home to feed their families. That is what motivates immigration, particularly the undocumented kind. I have been to Mexico and I guarantee if I had been born there as a poor person I would be figuring how to cross the border as well.

I-9 Identity Crisis

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