Long Hair on Men
Jarbarian
25 Posts
Tradionally, long hair on men has been discourage, especially if you work in HR. My question to you is, if I change my religion and part of that religion requires that I grow my hair out, can I be fired from my job? Wouldn't that be a form of religious descrimination? My intellect and ability to do my job has not changed with the growth of my hair. I am perfectly capable of doing my job *safely* with long hair. What would you suggest I do?
Comments
1. have a chat with you 2/c what the "long hair" desire is all about.
Not knowing your organizational culture, it might be significant for HR staff to maintain a more conservative appearance. This issue has to do with organizational climate vs. your ability to perform with longer hair.
2. how long do you wish your hair to be? Longer hair can still be viewed as conservative depending on how it's styled. Longer hair is less of an issue for me than dress (professional impression), but does depend on your position with HR. How much and what type of customer service interaction you have s/b a factor.
3. do you have a personal appearance policy that governs hair length or personal appearance?
Converting to a religion that endorses longer hair will only be a temporary solution. Your employer will quickly frown on using religious accommodation against them and you'll not win that war. You might win a battle or two, but the war will not be successful. There must be some middle ground for you and your employer to agree and that will be the factor for success. It may be that your desire for much longer hair is inconsistent with the employers culture and you'll be better served with finding a different employer-----------you've not given enough information to help make that suggestion.
>
>1. have a chat with you 2/c what the "long hair" desire is all about.
>Not knowing your organizational culture, it might be significant for
>HR staff to maintain a more conservative appearance. This issue has
>to do with organizational climate vs. your ability to perform with
>longer hair.
>
Our organization deals mostly with Union personnel, whom have long hair,
beards, goatees and dress anything but professionally. However, our organization has made it so the "non-union" employees have to conform to a higher standard of dress and appearance. I believe this to be a form of discrimination. We don't make our drivers, who see the customers I never see, have short hair, but they make me, who works in HR and NEVER sees any customers, maintain short hair.
It'd a double standard, if you ask me.
>2. how long do you wish your hair to be? Longer hair can still be
>viewed as conservative depending on how it's styled. Longer hair is
>less of an issue for me than dress (professional impression), but does
>depend on your position with HR. How much and what type of customer
>service interaction you have s/b a factor.
>3. do you have a personal appearance policy that governs hair length
>or personal appearance?
>
Long enough that I need to tie it back with a rubber band, about shoulder length. Not so long that it look stupid.
I dress professionally and wear business suits every day. I don't have a problem with their insistence that I wear a suit and tie, I just have a problem with them deciding how my personal beliefs in the way my hair is should be dictated by work. Isn't this a personal decision, not a business one?
The religious example is one I gave to show the lengths I would go through to grow my hair long. But it's getting to the point where I can't hide it's length anymore and now I must make a decision...
>Converting to a religion that endorses longer hair will only be a
>temporary solution. Your employer will quickly frown on using
>religious accommodation against them and you'll not win that war. You
>might win a battle or two, but the war will not be successful. There
>must be some middle ground for you and your employer to agree and that
>will be the factor for success. It may be that your desire for much
>longer hair is inconsistent with the employers culture and you'll be
>better served with finding a different employer-----------you've not
>given enough information to help make that suggestion.
Well I agree there. I guess my only option is to hold on to this job as long as I can with the hopes of finding another one with an HR department that is less "narrow minded".
>good fit. It must be difficult being effective in HR if you feel that
>way.
Well it's not hostile or anything.
I am seriously considering getting a male wig to hide the hair...my hair is staying and is important to me. My career is too, but I still don't feel that I need to change my "physical" appearance to convince someone I am intellectually and maturely capable to do my job...and do it well.
Let's say that your bona fide belief in your religion requires that men wear long hair; longer than just what may be "do-able" in a "pony tail." Your employer is willing to accommodate your religious beliefs but finds that what would normally be expected of a man practicing the faith in terms of the length of hair would be unacceptable in that work place.
The minister or other religious leader provides information about the requirement of long hair for men. He or she provides an interpretation from that while religious practice demands that long hair be worn, it, in fact doesn't have to be a "continuous" long hair and that s symbol representing the long hair would be sufficient to meet the demands of the religious practice. Thus, one could clip some of the hair and pin it to the upper part of the trousers or keep in a pocket.
Case in point:
Years ago, when American Sikhs (I'm pretty sure that was the sect) were first becoming noticed in US society, they claimed that they needed to carry knives with them as a practice of their faith. In the particular situation that I am aware of, the demands of the employer could not even allow a kitchen knife to be carried by any employee. The employer was a jail. What was worked out was that the employee could wear an emblem patch of a knfe or have sewn into the shirt the outline of a blade or knife commonly assciated with the Sikh religion. The solution was based upon the religion's demands as interpreted by the employee's religious leader.
So, the issue may not be so much what the particular religon demands but how the requirement may be interpreted to meet religous faith while meeting the needs of the employer.
>taken against you because of your long hair could be a title VII
>violation. I'd like to know how long is "long," what religion would
>you be affiliated with and how many people follow this particular
>belief?
Long is shoulder length, but tied back...not in a pony tail, but very professional.
One other thing I must add is that we have Union Employees that see customers 10x more than I do, yet they are not held to the same grooming standards that I am. In other words, we have drivers that deliver who have LONG, SCRAGGY hair, nasty goatees and wear horrible clothing (ripped jeans, ripped shirts, shorts, etc) yet no one says a word to them...because they are union and I am not.
Isn't that STILL a double standard? We pay the Union Employees so they are in essense OUR employees. Why wouldn't they be held to the same standard I am?
I also add this, it doesn't matter how many people follow a certain religion, courts have held that what constitutes a religion is a "sincerely held belief" and have even gone so far as to say one person may have their own religion. However, the proof standards are very high the smaller and less recognized the sect. If you claim to be part of an recognized religion, do you belong to the "church" of that faith? Do you attend regularly? Do you follow all the tenents? etc. These are the factors looked at. You can't just say I belong and use that to exempt you from your employers regulations. Once you establish that this is a bone fide religious belief, then the employer goes through whether it can reasonably accomodate that belief. You don't necessarily get the accomodation you ask for. The above examples given of the knife patch or carrying a lock of hair in your paocket are great examples of how this is done.
Hope that helps.
Margaret Morford
theHRedge
615-371-8200
[email]mmorford@mleesmith.com[/email]
[url]http://www.thehredge.net[/url]
>you have no problem with your employer requiring that you wear
>professional dress (a tie and coat), why is your hair any different?
>
Because my hair is not something I can grow back overnight. Shoes, shirts and other clothing can be EASILY replaced. My hair means something to me, my clothing does not. I can understand needing to have an attire that coorelates to your job, I just don't understand the thought process that leads one to believe that hair length matters.
Again, the length of my hair is not proportionate to my intellect or my ability to my job and leads me to believe most employers requiring men have short hair are just narrow-minded and lose out out on good employees who happen to enjoy having long hair.
>I also add this, it doesn't matter how many people follow a certain
>religion, courts have held that what constitutes a religion is a
>"sincerely held belief" and have even gone so far as to say one
>person may have their own religion. However, the proof standards are
>very high the smaller and less recognized the sect. If you claim to
>be part of an recognized religion, do you belong to the "church" of
>that faith? Do you attend regularly? Do you follow all the tenents?
>etc. These are the factors looked at. You can't just say I belong
>and use that to exempt you from your employers regulations. Once you
>establish that this is a bone fide religious belief, then the employer
>goes through whether it can reasonably accomodate that belief. You
>don't necessarily get the accomodation you ask for. The above
>examples given of the knife patch or carrying a lock of hair in your
>paocket are great examples of how this is done.
>
>Hope that helps.
>
>Margaret Morford
>theHRedge
>615-371-8200
>mmorford@mleesmith.com
>[url]http://www.thehredge.net[/url]
What religion do Native Americans believe in? If I am correct, it's none. Just nature. Are they exempt based on their race, because that would be the only factor in the length of their hair.
And if I say I am part Native American, say 10%, would that also exempt me from having to cut my hair?
You see where I am going with this? The rules regarding hair length on men are preposterous! Here it is the year 2001 and companies are still anhering to personal grooming standards at an age when people want to be free to express their individuality.
Sorry, I am just really frustrated with the way business operate lately....
The double standard you refer to appears to exist, but that doesn't make it illegal or even improper. Presumably the Union members are governed by a contract and if appearance is silent in the contract, then it's up to mgt to designate what's expected. Those standards may be very different from what's expected of the HR staff. I would hope that the standards of dress & appearance apply to HR on the same basis as other administrative departments.
As an HR executive, I respect and support one's right to dress consistent with their bona-fide religious belief's....... I struggle with the pursuit of a particular religious practice solely to permit a change in dress, physical appearance, or to make a point, etc...... perhaps it's my high regard for one's religion that creates that rigidity. It may be that your continued employment with that employer (and continuing in HR) will be a struggle that you're not willing to endure and this may be an excercise that convinces you to move on. If so, good luck . If you decide to remain, I hope you find some middle ground that offers you and the employer a comfort area with the length of your hair.
>will have a broader approach to physical appearance and hair length.
>A small department within a small employer would be more likely to
>tolerate shoulder length hair than working in an HR department for a
>large employer.
>
>The double standard you refer to appears to exist, but that doesn't
>make it illegal or even improper. Presumably the Union members are
>governed by a contract and if appearance is silent in the contract,
>then it's up to mgt to designate what's expected. Those standards may
>be very different from what's expected of the HR staff. I would hope
>that the standards of dress & appearance apply to HR on the same basis
>as other administrative departments.
>
I am willing to be that in court, I would win my argument. This is a double standard that regardless of whether the union employees are under contract, they are still PAID by us and we still HIRE and FIRE them. That makes them employees whom are still bound to the same rules and regulations I am. In fact, our regulations do not state hair length on men at all. This is just a silent rule within the company.
>As an HR executive, I respect and support one's right to dress
>consistent with their bona-fide religious belief's....... I struggle
>with the pursuit of a particular religious practice solely to permit a
>change in dress, physical appearance, or to make a point, etc......
>perhaps it's my high regard for one's religion that creates that
>rigidity. It may be that your continued employment with that employer
>(and continuing in HR) will be a struggle that you're not willing to
>endure and this may be an excercise that convinces you to move on. If
>so, good luck . If you decide to remain, I hope you find some middle
>ground that offers you and the employer a comfort area with the length
>of your hair.
Unfortunately I don't think we'll be able to find a middle ground. My boss is the person who is insistent on business suits for me (while everyone else gets to wear casual clothes) and informed me she would not tolerate long hair on men whom report to her. She's very "rigid" herself and stuck on physical attributes as a reflection of ones ability to do the job.
When my hair is long, does that mean my intelligence and ability to do the job instantly disappears?
Good Luck
>religious beliefs, or the employer risks violating Title VII.
>However, this only applies to BONA FIDE religious beliefs. It seems
>to me that changing your religion so you can grow long hair does not
>result in a Bona Fide religious belief.
>
>Good Luck
Why can't I convert to a religion that's more in line with my views? Long hair might only be part of it. Can you prove it's the only reason in a court?
I think I'd win easily.
I take religion and the law seriously. The law is designed to protect employees with bona fide religious beliefs. I know that some employees have claimed discrimination (whether religious or other) in an attempt to get over on something. And even though the employer may not be able to prove it in many cases, it makes me mad!!
Good Luck!
>in HR or upper-management means you are held to a higher standard.
>This may not be fair, but this is the career we have chosen. For
>example, I make the conscious decision to not participate in social
>events or activities with co-workers because I fear I may hear or see
>something which I will have an obligation to investigate or report.
>Or just to avoid an uncomfortable situation or the possibility of the
>appearance of favortism. I am the youngest Director w/in my company
>and because of age, I have completely different tastes and a "look".
>Yet, I remain aware that I still represent the company at all times.
>You either need to look for a company that has a more liberal slant or
>choose another profession.
I think it's time for companies to stop being so narrow-minded. It's this thought process that keeps the USA behind the rest of the world when it comes to creating a working environment condusive to creativity.
Way to "Smith-Barney" me....and think the "old fashioned" way...
Maybe so, but....
If I start coming to work with a shaved head no one would question me. It's a known fact than in LA, most people with shaved heads are gang members or skinheads. They're not discrimintated against for their appearance yet I automatically am because I have long hair. Do you not see the problem?
Do you see where I am going here? It's this ridiculous STEROTYPE companies hang on to that a male with long hair is no longer able to represent their company, as if the length of hair has some direct correlation with his intellect. Yet I can walk around blatenly advertising I am a gang member or skinhead and no one says anything.
Regardless of *WHY* I want long hair, it should not be a determining factor in whether I can do my job or not. People and Companies that stick to these "old" fashioned viewpoints are why businesses become "stale".
It's not the hair that makes a person, it's the whats underneath the skull that counts.
>The work culture continues to change and indeed certain industries
>have a more liberal view when it comes to the dress of their staff.
>But this topic has taken some dramatic swing now to skinheads. The
>issue is that absent any bona fide reason you have for growing your
>hair long, your current employer does not legally have to consider
>your accomodation. It sounds as though you are working at a company
>that does not mesh with your personal philosophies. So instead of
>trying to trump up a false religion, you need to deal with it or find
>a new job.
Let me ask you a question.
If the union employees can grow their hair long and we have no policies and procedures manual and our grooming standards are silent ones, then what's to stop me from suing them in court for wrongful termination if it's indeed proven that I was fired because of the length of my hair?
And I would gladly find a new job, but what I am finding out is I am not being treated equally and I will have to suffer to take a lower paying job proportionate with the length of my hair. In other words, the longer my hair, the less people want to pay me even though I am more qualified and produce better results than most of my collegues who've "conformed".
You don't see a problem with that thought process?
>incident or event that occurs with their staff. I was the Director of
>HR for a small community-bank (6 branches) and we had casual dress on
>Fridays. Well, a newly hired teller got a nose ring, which was not
>too much of a problem. At that time we felt comfortable allowing her
>to wear it. But on one casual Friday, she shows up with the nose ring
>that has a chain attached that extends to the ear. Well, was that was
>a problem? Yes. Did we have a policy specifically addressing a
>dangling chain that went from nose to ear? No. But we addressed it
>with the employee and developed a policy addressing piercings, etc. A
>company is not obligated to think progressively. If an employee has a
>sincerely held belief, then a company must take the effort to
>reasonably accomodate them. But again, it must be an inter-active
>dialogue.
See this I can agree with. I think the company should at least be willing to start some dialog. In other words, if the company says you can grow your hair out but it must be tied back at all times, and well maintained then I have no problem and feel that is fair. Besides, I wouldn't run around with my hair going everywhere. I do maintain some semblence of professionalism.
>hair length?
At the time I took the job, that was never an issue and it wasn't brought up by either side.
>Or, did they change the requirements after you accepted the position?
Nope.
>I believe that HR professionals need to set a certain
>standard for the company. The HR deparment is the conscience of the
>organization, and is responsible for seeing that the current policies
>and procedures are administered fairly and consistently.
Yet the employees that see our customers the most are the ones who wear shabby clothes, have scraggily long hair, ripped/dirty shirts, etc. Why is it that if I wear my hair tied back and cleanly there's something wrong with ME?
>If you are unable to do this, then you may need to rethink your choice of
>occupation.
Which is sad because I've spent the last 12 years doing an excellent job and to think that because I want to change my appearance I would be villified for it....
>Do I think that how you look reflects what you know, absolutely not. But, if >you accepted the job knowing what would be
>expected of you as to dress and hair length, then I believe you should
>act the professional now and follow the company guidelines...or leave
>and find a company where you can express yourself freely.
I didn't. And it's a shame but you are probably right.
Thanks.
Imagine you have a beautiful plate of food, you are going to eat this food and enjoy it greatly. Now, imagine that there is a large hairy tarantula crawling across the edge of this plate. Do you still want to eat the food? Do you know that the tarantula doesn't really want your food?
Your hair is the tarantula on your employer's dinner plate. Your desire to have long hair and your resistance to comply with your employer's standards indicate that you think your hair should be your own business. Impressions matter unless you work completely by yourself.
>
>Imagine you have a beautiful plate of food, you are going to eat this
>food and enjoy it greatly. Now, imagine that there is a large hairy
>tarantula crawling across the edge of this plate. Do you still want
>to eat the food? Do you know that the tarantula doesn't really want
>your food?
>
>Your hair is the tarantula on your employer's dinner plate. Your
>desire to have long hair and your resistance to comply with your
>employer's standards indicate that you think your hair should be your
>own business. Impressions matter unless you work completely by
>yourself.
This is NOT a good example. You are comparing Apples and Oranges.
If a man with well maintained, tied back, long hair gives you the impression he is unable to do his job, I'd like you to meet several of my friends. All of which have IQs of 140 or greater, are very successful in their careers and have helped bring their employers to the new millennium. They helped their employer see that by being narrow-minded about the length of a man's hair they almost lost their most productive employees.
I am not saying that an employer shouldn't have a dress code. I just don't think the dress code should dictate how long a man's hair can be. It should only be required that he keep it tied back and neat in appearance.
members or skinheads.
...
It's this ridiculous STEROTYPE companies hang on to that a male with long hair is no longer able to represent their company, as if the length of hair has some direct correlation with his intellect<<
Hello... Pot? Kettle calling. Yer black!
>02:26 PM (CST)[/font]
>
>Jabarian, stand by your convictions and make them real in practice.
>Wear long hair, get fired, and then sue the company for "wrongful"
>discharge. If you're right, you should collect big. If you're wrong,
>then you'll find out why you were wrong since you seem not to want to
>take any of the good analyses provided you here. I'm taking odds
>against you on this issue though.
I understand what's being said. What I am frustrated at is not the responses, but the narrowmindedness of business today who still conform to idealogy of the 20's. We're a much more intelligent society and as such, I still can't understand why the mentality is still stuck in the past.
And if you wanted to take odds against me, then be my guest. I am growing my hair out and dare they fire me, I'll merely state precident. Our union personnel are not held to grooming standards and we have no policy and procedures manual (for a 4000 person strong company!).
Sorry, maybe other people will lay down easily but I prefer to put up a good fight for my convictions.